On Headcoverings and Modesty of Women in Church

[Natasha]

I was thinking about this subject the other day, and I wanted to add that rules about head coverings aren't just for women. For example, the last time I was in Russia, my husband and I visited a monastery. It was the middle of the Russian winter, and I had a scarf on my head-and a winter hat, and he had his winter hat on as well. When we walked into a tiny chapel, he forgot to UNCOVER his head, and wow, a monk yelled at him in the worst way! Obviously, my husband didn't mean to disrespectful, it just slipped his mind. So, while the boys are arguing about how we should dress, maybe we should remind them about the rules as well!

Yes, a lot of young people from Russia tend to dress flashy, and ugh, so many young women really pile the ultra-red lipstick on. I think of it more as a result of the end of communism. People wanted these products for a long time, and now that they finally have them-whoa. Also remember, a lot of those young Russians did not grow up in religious households, so they don't know a lot of the things we take for granted. Often I have seen women from church hand younger women a scarf and a tissue to wipe that caked on lipstick off. Ultimately, it is just another reason that I believe we, as Orthodox Christians, should concentrate on our brothers and sisters in eastern europe, so we can help guide them on the right path.

And on a side note, I hate shorts-period. But that is just a personal opinion.

[TomS]

In short, I feel that as churches become more "feminist" the more likely they are to lessen their oposition to homosexuality and abortion.

I agree with this. But we must find a way to make everyone feel included.

Hence my distrust of feminism, in brief.

Extremism is bad in ANY form. And yes I ALSO mean Orthodoxy. It then becomes a religion of "judgers" and the evil one takes control of our eyes searching for someone to "straighten out".

It is a sign of respect, and it also gives one the idea that entering church is "special."

Absolutely. I object to woman attending church in short skirts and tight shirts or low-cut blouses. Likewise, I object to MEN attending church in tight pants and tight shirts. It works both ways.

To add to Sues57 thoughts, I will add MY thoughts:

Whether a womens head is covered or not, is not YOUR problem. YOUR problem is the vile sin that you need to be fighting against continously within YOURSELF. The sin to stop judging your fellow Orthodox Christian. The sin of judging that just because a woman is not weraing a head scarf means that they are a BAD Orthodox Christian.

Believe me -- YOU have enough problems of your OWN without also worrying about other peoples perceived problems!

[Natasha]

"I agree with this. But we must find a way to make everyone feel included."

Tom, perhaps you could clarify this for me. Do you mean that everyone does not feel included now?

[sue57]

Believe me, I feel fortunate to be able to attend an Orthodox church, whether someone covers her head or not, is her business. It is just somehting you tend to notice, probably because I don't want to do anything wrong. I know the first time I went to church, my scarf slipped back and I nearly cried! I was sure that someone would be offended!

Of course I undertand that Russian women, after years of Communism, and very few consumer good, enjoy having access to cosmetics, fashion, etc. On a more serious note, it is some assertion of "themselves" that was denied during Communist repression. Curiously, that can work well for Orthodoxy as well. It was a facet of being Russian that was oppressed and denied, many young people are curious and returning to the Church. So there was some tenacious oppostion to Communism that has manifested itself in many curious and diverse ways. BTW, I don't think God notices or gets upset by lipstick(!) The priest just doesn't want it all over the icons

[TomS]

"I agree with this. But we must find a way to make everyone feel included."

Tom, perhaps you could clarify this for me. Do you mean that everyone does not feel included now?

You are right. I think everyone does feel included. I guess I was going with the idea of forcing a person because of their gender to do something like wear a scarf when there is nothing like this required of the other gender.

See, I would have NO problem with head covering if St. Paul had said that a man had to wear a specific item of clothing to show his obediance.

That's what we should do, say all men HAVE to wear ties to church. Now That would be fair!

[Natasha]

as I said, to my knowledge, men cannot have their heads covered while in church-so I think it is fair. (Please, no one ask me to provide scriptural evidence-oi).

Ugh, I have been trying to avoid this conversation for so long, but I can't hold back any longer...I don't understand why in the US Orthodox women can go to church dressed anyway they please, but if we were in a historically Orthodox country, it would not be acceptable. Should we tell all the babushkas that they are pharisees? Like the monk who corrected my husband, was he wrong? Should we have told him to mind his own sins? Outside of some churches/monasteries in Russia, there are signs that say not to enter if you are dressed inappropriately. Would we dare challenge them there? Why should we act different here? What gives us the right?

I always wear a scarf in church, even if no other women are wearing one, because I believe that is what we are instructed to do as women. It is extremely disturbing to me that in a time span of 10+ years, so much is changing. For example, I remember being taught at a summer church camp that our role as Orthodox women was to either a) get married and have children and bring them up in the Faith, or b) become a nun and serve God. This was at an OCA camp when I was about 11 years old. I highly doubt that is being taught at the same institution today!

[Natasha]

& I think men should have to wear ties to church too, but again, that is just my own personal opinion !