Difficult Conversion

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Moronikos,

It just seems as if you have jumped ship from one extreme position to another.

My understanding is that you're a former Uniate. If that is so, could I not just as equally say you jumped from one indifferentistic/ecclessiologically mushy ship to another?

In the first case, it would have been traditional RCism with its narrow definition of the church, and now it is the ROAC. It seems to me to be two sides of the same coin.

Having had many occassions to speak with Juvenaly, and knowing his own personal history, I have seen important parallels in our mutual pasts, as well as differences.

One characteristic that I think can be discerned as being "true" of more doctrinal traditionalist Roman Catholics (as opposed to those who perhaps have some less well informed or more sentimental attachment to the old Latin rubrics and doctrinal formulations) that I have noticed, is that they tend to be reasoning people who understand that ideas/doctrines have real life consequences, both for how you live your life personally, and how the Church's discipline is formulated/express.

It is typically because of this consciousness, that such "trads" find their way out of "Vatican II" Catholicism, and into one of the various arms of the "Traditionalist Catholic" movement.

One dillema of course for all "traditionalst" Roman Catholics, is that in reality they are placing "Holy Tradition" above the contemporary magisterial authority of the Popes and those bishops loyal to them. They observe differences between the two (what they understand to be "holy tradition", and what contemporary Catholicism is about), and they choose. Of course, for some this creates a very understandable crisis of conscience, since like it or not, Papism is just that - it's entire ecclessiology is ultimatly "papal-centric". You really cannot be a "good papist" without the Pope, after all. For some, this leads to "sedevecantism" (those traditionalist RC's who solve these problems by simply denying there is a legitimate Pope right now...though this solution has problems of it's own)...but for a few fortunate others, it causes a deeper penetration of the subject of "tradition", the Church, and the history of Christendom.

For me, that deeper penetration (and an already, though only grudgingly admitted, positive experience of Orthodox dogmatics, Patristic thought, liturgy, etc.) contributed to my abandoning papism entirely. Simply put, Orthodoxy is the real "Catholic Traditionalism". Of course, all of these descriptions of my own journey (and what I can gather as being common in Juvenaly's) only explain the human dimension of these things, the removal of obsticals in the conscience and will so as to be humble before the uncreated Light, which shines upon all men.

While this subject as a whole is too broad (and in many ways, irrelevent to Orthodoxy) to be discussed here, let alone in this thread, I think Juvenaly would recognize the truthfulness of what I have said - and how it contributed to his conversion to Orthodox Christianity. Not only this, but how it contributed to his by-passing the ecumenistic, anti-canonical fancies of the ecumenist "Orthodox", and sought out the "real thing." I think we were in a better position than many, to abandon sentimental attachments to our past, which very often add difficulties to those considering Orthodox Christianity (indeed, I think some make the decisions that they do, precisely because they are unwilling to renounce their former religions in a clear, unambiguous way.)

Are you the same Joseph Martinka that wrote a review of Michael Rose's "Goodby Good Men"? That Joseph Martinka wanted to become a Roman Catholic Priest and was rejected on mental grounds. That same Joseph Martinka then tried to join a monastic order, but was also rejected for about the same reasons, as far as I can tell.

For anyone unfamiliar with the real situation in the RCC right now, it is very common for anyone resembling a "conservative" or "traditional" believer, or even with strong sympathies in this direction, to be excluded from seminaries and religious institutions on "psychological grounds." Functionally, most of the RCC right now is a liberal-secularist wasteland; they seemed to by-pass protestantism entirely, and went and got comfy with secular-humanism. I've known many young men who were turned away from Novus-Ordo seminaries for "psychological reasons", largely because they didn't answer the leading questions of the diocesan examiner the way they wanted (on such issues as liturgy, homosexuality, opinion of non-Catholic religions, ordination of women, etc.)

Thus, getting called "crazy" by these people is almost essential; you should be worried if they don't think you're crackers.

I used to regularly talk to an RC priest from Quebec (he was the vice-rector of my parish at the time) about this. He rather sheepishly revealed that in truth, he had to spend his whole seminary "silent" so as to not give away his actual opinions on anything - for not only was there simply the danger of not being admitted to a seminary in the first place for having "old fashioned" views, but even being booted out at some point later on (typically by way of some woman "advisor" telling you they didn't think you "had a vocation".)

Seraphim

Moronikos
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Post by Moronikos »

Joseph Michael,

You write in your review of Goodbye, Good Men:

My first and third (of three) psychological exams were given by lay associates. I am guessing that the "priest shortage" has caused them to fall back on lay people to give the exams. On two of the three occasions, I was told point blank that my results stated that I was "a tad too heavy on the Conservative side," and that the recommendation from the diocese was to "wait two years, live my life, find myself, and re-apply." It was at this point that I looked at the option of possibly joining a religious order. However, they too had the idea that there was something wrong with me, because they too felt the need to send me to a psychologist for testing and when the same results came back, it was their "plan" to "mold me into a different person."

What your review says, and what you say now does not jibe. It's hard to tell the truth when I read conflicting stories. Perhaps there is more to the story...

Well, at the time of Nicea, it was not uncommon for the catechumenate to last several years. In my experience in "world orthodoxy" (trad terms), I have not seen a catechumenate that was under 5 months, and previous to becoming a catechumen, the person generally attended services for a while for Father to make a judgement on whether the person was serious or not.

You do correctly point out that Phillip baptized the Ethiopian immediately. So in itself, it would not be such a big deal. I guess it depends on what you want to wink at and be outraged at. Some of the apostles, and St. Ambrose were married. I can imagine the outcry by the supposed trads if Pavle ordained a married man to the bishoprick. In that case, the scripture would be null and void...

I am also glad that you have attained metanoia. You are much better than the rest of us. Therefore, when you label me as swine, I can be sure that I really am since a person that has attained metanoia has called me that. I know that it's not a passionate person calling me that, but a real, true, orthodox christian (tm).

The swine,
Joseph

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Well, at the time of Nicea, it was not uncommon for the catechumenate to last several years. In my experience in "world orthodoxy" (trad terms), I have not seen a catechumenate that was under 5 months, and previous to becoming a catechumen, the person generally attended services for a while for Father to make a judgement on whether the person was serious or not.

At my former OCA parish, and the GOA now that I think of it, Catechumens were told, "here, take this 80 page book home, read it, and when you are done, all is good."

And that is not an exaggeration.

Of course I would hate to use antidotal evidence to measure the pulse, if there still is one, of "worldly orthodoxy". But it sure enough seems to fit their general profile.

.

Moronikos
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Re: umm

Post by Moronikos »

NicholasZollars wrote:

your assumptions continue. You assume to know the whole situation from a few readings of Juvenaly (that is his LEGAL name) 's blog. You continue to assume I was an SSPXer even though you have absolutely no way of knowing this and it is completely without base.

OL, perhaps you should look at how Moronikos (and others in world "orthodoxy") stoops to character assasinations of Clergy, baseless assumptions, and pontificating upon situations in which he knows nothing but a few details to see how world "orthodoxy" is nothing but a sham.

Joe Zollars,

I began composing my post before you could correct me about lumping you in with the SSPXers--although you did financially support them and attend their services. An honest person could see how such a mistake could be made.

After reading your posts on anastasios' boad (this past summer I reckon), I was surprised to hear you were made a catechumen on your second visit to the monastery in CO. If I am mistaken about this, please correct me--it's what I get with my brain aging and not being able to follow every single thread. I remember you being all over the map ecclesiologically with your opinion changing very often. You seemed to go to orthodox, back to trad RCism, to ROCOR, to something else, and seemingly every permutation thereof--at least that is the way I recollect it. Now you are a catechumen with ROAC. It just strikes me as not very prudent to make someone a catechumen on their second visit when they have demonstrated in the past to bounce so quickly around.

The swine,
Joseph

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Грешник
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Post by Грешник »

Moronikos,

It seems you are stuck on the swine verse. Not sure why but it also seems that you assume I meant this to be in regards to you. It was not. It was a verse that you obviously took out of context. I am sorry if I made you think that it was meant for you.

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Грешник
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Post by Грешник »

Moronikos,

As Seaphom pointed out, it is common and also REQUIRED that any entrant into the religious life wether for an Order or for a diocese take a mental exam.

My point in the article, that anyone farmilliar with the Roman process knows is that one community WILL not take the word of another community on the mental state of an entrant. This is why there were several exams. One by the Diocese, one by the Seminary in California where the Diocese wanted ot send mw and one from the Vocations director of the religious Community. 1+1+1=3

Does this seem odd to you? This is normal practice in Romanism.

As to your coin theory, the actual line of events was Roman to Trad to Byzantine to ROAC. This I see as a basic path of truth, where I could get "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

As Nicholas Zollars pointed out my name os Juvenaly. Thanks.

As for the possibility that I might have offended anyone I am sorry. Thankfully I will only have a few days left online. Mybe this is the best time to start praying harder for an answer to alot of my questions regarding the "where to go from here" in my head :)

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PFC Nektarios
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Post by PFC Nektarios »

As you know I dont share some of your Fundamentalist Extreme Views
of some of you on here. You should read the Paternal Councils by
Blessed Father Philotheos. He would teach you a few things about calling
every body heretics and saying your church is "Genuine" Orthodox.
I just read a part in his Paternal Councils that fits your views, to the "T".

I am now a Catechumenate in the Antiochian Orthodox Church.
I will some time in my life be become part of ROCOR. My Spiritual
Father is ROCOR. Right now I'm just become an Orthodox Christian
Which is the most important thing, which seems to me that most you
loose site of.

I would see why some of your partents have disowned. I would not want to be affliated or be in communication, with some one that is so full of
malice towards all other Orthodox besides there own group. It all reminds me of Islamic Fundamentalism, except the Orthodox Christianity version.

I dont believe any of these Extremeist groups to be Orthodox, because they turn there backs on the Lords command to love one another, as
Father Philotheos has commented on in the part of his book "Paternal Councils: Concerning the Old Calendar".

In Christ
OL.

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