post deleted by author ----------------

[joasia]

How is anyone supposed to take your arguments seriously when you can't even be bothered to check basic, objective, obvious facts? Patriarch Athenagoras was Oecumenical Patriarch from 1948-1972. There were seven different Oecumenical Patriarchs between the introduction of the New Calendar and Patriarch Athenagoras.

Thanks for correcting me, George. I always get mixed up with names and dates. It could have been Meletios in 1924. Point being, the calendar was changed and the Patriarch who did it died a gruesome death. Can you find out for me, please? My computer is so tempermental and freezes alot. I had to reboot three times before I could finally access this site.

So how many times a year did the Saints and Angels in Heaven celebrate the Nativity of Christ for the first 600 years of the Church's history before a common date was agreed upon? Did the Angels and Saints celebrate the Nativity on the 20th of May and 19th of April with the Church in Alexandria? Or did the Angels and Saints celebrate the Nativity on the 6th of January with the Church in Cyprus, Jerusalem and Contantinople. Or did the Angels and Saints celebrate the Nativity on the 25th of December with the Church in Antioch?

That's a good question. I assume that Heaven knew what dates to celebrate, but I figure, they were waiting for the holy fathers to get it straight. Eventually, it all came into unison, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

When should we celebrate the feast day of St. Ephraim of Mt. Amomon? He revealed that his feast day is January 3rd to New Calendarists. Should we celebrate his feast on the civil date of January 3rd since he was revealed to the New Calendarists, or should we who follow the Old Calendar revise this date to the civil date of January 26th

I don't know about the calendar you are following, but the feast day for St. Ephraim of Ammon is on May 5th, by the old calendar. That falls on May 18th of the CIVIL calendar. I don't know who you are referring to, that was revealed to by St. Ephraim.

St. Ephraim was hanged upside down on a tree, by the Turkish soldiers, on May 5th, 1426. They were following the Julian calendar, at that time. Hence, the old calendar. You would celebrate it on May 5th, new calendar, but it's only April 22nd, Julian style. I don't know where the date of January came from. Maybe, you should recheck that date.

We here in Australia are 12 to 16 hours ahead in time than the United States, so that when it is Pascha in Australia, it is still Holy Saturday in the United States. Don't the Angels and Saints celebrate Pascha with us before they celebrate with you?

I believe that it is a continuous celebration. But, it's still on the same date. And also, the Holy Fire appears to the people, in Jerusalem,
at their time, apart from U.S. or Australian time. But, it's still the same date, for the rest of us. But, it is certainly NOT 2 WEEKS apart.

Do not turn the traditions of men into God's laws Joanna.

I would never do that, George. I believe in the tradition of God, who wants us to observe His laws. The calendar change was a tradition of men, that many have made to believe is God's law. So your support of it, actually contridicts your above statement.

Did God speak to you through the same "angel" that made the "fact clear to you" that Patriarch Athenagoras instituted the New Calendar? I think that might be a naughty angel.

As I mentioned, I am not clear on names and dates. But, I do remember the meaning of situations. That is...the Orthodox teachings. Unfortunately, I don't always remember which saint said what. But, I do remember what was said. I was referring to the teachings, not the names and dates...I'm bad with names and dates.

I am not influenced by any demonic source, if that is what you're implying. But, I wonder about Greeks born in their culture, that don't even question the calendar issue. They're like the catholics that don't even question the church history. They just live by what they have been taught to do and believe that it is right.

In Christ,

Joanna

[George Australia]

Point being, the calendar was changed and the Patriarch who did it died a gruesome death. Can you find out for me,

Dear in Christ Joanna,
I'm not sure of the history of a "gruesome death", but what I do know is that we cannot presume to know God's Judgements. We worship a God Who also died a gruesome death on the Cross; St. Nektarios of Pentapolis died the the horrible pain of cystitis in a paupers' hospital.

I assume that Heaven knew what dates to celebrate, but I figure, they were waiting for the holy fathers to get it straight. Eventually, it all came into unison, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

But we are still not in complete unison, even when we are in the same location. The Holy Monastery of Iveron on the Holy Mountain has always followed Jerusalem time whereas the other 19 Monasteries of Mount Athos follow Byzantine time. This means that, like Jerusalem, Iveron celebrates the Pascha at what we consider noon on Holy Saturday.

But, it's still on the same date. And also, the Holy Fire appears to the people, in Jerusalem,

No, it's not on the same date. The Holy Fire appears in the Church of the Ressurection at midday on Holy Saturday when Jerusalem celebrates the Pascha, not at midnight Pascha Sunday as we celebrate it. We don't even celebrate the Pascha on the same day that Jerusalem does, and yet the Holy Fire continues to appear- Heaven is apparently not as hung up on the calendar as we are.
George

[joasia]

It could have been Meletios in 1924. Point being, the calendar was changed and the Patriarch who did it died a gruesome death. Can you find out for me, please?

Did you not find the information? A Greek friend of mine told me that the Patriarch died, under his bed, with his tongue hanging completely out of his mouth. Before his death, he was in great pains, not pains of suffering for God, but anticipating his fate. He was screaming about God punishing him for creating a schism. Can you find out about it, please?

But we are still not in complete unison, even when we are in the same location. The Holy Monastery of Iveron on the Holy Mountain has always followed Jerusalem time whereas the other 19 Monasteries of Mount Athos follow Byzantine time. This means that, like Jerusalem, Iveron celebrates the Pascha at what we consider noon on Holy Saturday.

It certainly is a sad time that we live. We have lost the unison..due to mankind...ketalevais?

No, it's not on the same date. The Holy Fire appears in the Church of the Ressurection at midday on Holy Saturday when Jerusalem celebrates the Pascha, not at midnight Pascha Sunday as we celebrate it. We don't even celebrate the Pascha on the same day that Jerusalem does, and yet the Holy Fire continues to appear- Heaven is apparently not as hung up on the calendar as we are.

As I said, at least it's not 2 weeks apart. But, I tend to disagree...MANKIND is NOT hung up on the calendar, as it should be. Maybe then, there would be unison amongst ourselves.

But, on a personal note...I do think about the Holy Fire, at the time that it is happening in Jersualem...

Don't turn the difference against Heaven. It's mankind that has created the difference. It's about 7 p.m. here, at the time, so I just concentrate on the fact that the Holy Fire has appeared until we all sing Hpistos Avesti.

I HAVE read the book on the Holy Light by Archim. Savva Achilleos.

By the way, why is it that the new calendarists follow the new calendar up until the Great Lent, then they shift into the old calendar gear?
Simple- because the date of Pascha must fall after the Jewish Pascha, which does not always happen in the Gregorian Calendar.

I'm still confused about this part. When you follow the Gregorian for the rest of the year, it obviously, doesn't fall into the perspective of the Great Lent. But, with the old calendar, there is no disruption in order to switch to a calendar that falls after the jewish passover. Plus, you can sometimes miss the fast of St. Peter and Paul, all together, because you switch back to Gregorian after Pentecost.

So why does the new calendar church want so much to follow the Gregorian calendar, which creates such disharmony? You said it yourself:"because the date of Pascha must fall after the Jewish Pascha, which does not always happen in the Gregorian Calendar."

So it seems, pretty confusing, to be switching calendars, when you admit that your calendar doesn't coincide with the jewish passover. Pascha is to follow after the full moon and not coincide with it.

In Christ,

Ioavva

[Justin Kissel]

I don't know that it's historically demonstratable that all early Christians followed the Julian calendar. In fact, I think the opposite can be evidenced. Maybe it's not good to speak so absolutely about times when not everything was totally organized yet? Just a thought (I say this as a firm supporter of the old calendar today).

[TomS]

A Greek friend of mine told me that the Patriarch died, under his bed, with his tongue hanging completely out of his mouth. Before his death, he was in great pains, not pains of suffering for God, but anticipating his fate. He was screaming about God punishing him for creating a schism.

Oh Lordy -- the Greeks and their myths!

[romiosini]

Actually what was rumored was that Patriarch Meletius Metaxakis of Crete was grounding his teeth in pain and saying in regret that he has created schism in the Church. Others say that he wasn't suffering pains, but died peacefully. Now speaking of tongue hanging from mouth... is a little too extreme...

(hopefully this isn't mythological to any non-greeks)[/url]

[George Australia]

It certainly is a sad time that we live. We have lost the unison..due to mankind...ketalevais?

Dear in Christ Joanna,
I think you've missed the point. The unison was not lost- it never existed. Iveron monastery is 1000 years old, as are the other monasteries of Mount Athos, and they have never followed the same calculation of time.

As I said, at least it's not 2 weeks apart. But, I tend to disagree...MANKIND is NOT hung up on the calendar, as it should be. Maybe then, there would be unison amongst ourselves.

Well, this teaching contradicts the teaching of the Divine Apostle who wrote:

Romans 14
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Don't turn the difference against Heaven. It's mankind that has created the difference. It's about 7 p.m. here, at the time, so I just concentrate on the fact that the Holy Fire has appeared until we all sing Hpistos Avesti (sic).

Joanna, the definition of Eternity is that it is beyond time and space- you seem to want to confine Heaven within the physical laws of our four dimensions.

I'm still confused about this part. When you follow the Gregorian for the rest of the year, it obviously, doesn't fall into the perspective of the Great Lent.

Firstly, I follow the Old Calendar, secondly, the Gregorian Calendar is not the same as the New Calendar, thirdly, there is no difference between how the Old and New Calendar operate with reference to the fixed and moveable feasts. Both Calendars have a Menaion and Paschalion. The New Calendar does not follow the Old Calendar for the Paschalion, it simply calculates the date of Pascha according to the Vernal Equinox and the Jewish Nomical Pascha- the same way that the Old Calendar does, but of course, the dates are different.

So why does the new calendar church want so much to follow the Gregorian calendar, which creates such disharmony? You said it yourself:"because the date of Pascha must fall after the Jewish Pascha, which does not always happen in the Gregorian Calendar."

Joanna, you don't seem to realise that whatever calendar is followed, the Canons require that Pascha falls after the Jewish Nomical Pascha. If the date of Pascha were just calculated according to the Vernal Equinox, the Julian Calendar would also have Pascha falling before or on the Jewish Nopmical Pascha.

So it seems, pretty confusing, to be switching calendars, when you admit that your calendar doesn't coincide with the jewish passover. Pascha is to follow after the full moon and not coincide with it.

As explained, this is not the only criterion for calculating the date of Pascha. I don't see why this is confusing- it is no different from switching from the Menaion to the Paschalion in the Old Calendar.
George