Cyprian Was Wrong on Rebaptism

[Jean-Serge]

Catholics do not deny popes can be wrong. The teaching is that they cannot be wrong when they speak to the universal Church on matters of faith or morals in an ex cathedra context from the chair.

The notion of ex cathedra is entirely absent from the Fathers. It is a modern catholic invention aimed at explaining the discrepancies between orthodox popes who did not believe in Inmaculate conception and the Vatican innovations and forgeries.

The primacy of Rome has always recognised but not its exact content. A primacy of honour gives no infallibility... The Honorius case clearly proves that Christians did not believe in papal infallibility... Moreover, since you admit that popes may be wrong they can be wrong over the question of baptism too...

[Evfimy]

As I showed (which you didn't comment on) Saint Theodore the Studite demonstrates that the primacy of Rome is by divine right. Rome has authority over all the churches, which is why Saint Cyprian was wrong regarding rebaptism.

LATERAN COUNCIL [649]

Saint Maximos the Confessor put this council on the same status of the ecumenical councils. He approved of this council. And he stated the following:

"For ever since the Word of God condescended to us and became a man, all the Churches of Christians everwhere have held, and hold the great Church [Rome] there as their sole basis and foundation, because, according to the very promises of the Lord, the gates of hell have never prevailed over her, but rather she has the keys of the orthodox faith and confession; she opens the genuine and only piety to those who approach her piously, but closes every heretical mouth that speaks injustice." [PG 91:137-40].

Now, lets take a look at what the Lateran Council stated. This council was convened to refute the Monothelite heresy.

The notary Theophylact welcomed the bishops, explaining that Pope Martin had summoned them to overthrow a new heresy "by his apostolic authority." Then, turning to the pope, Theophylact asked him to address the gathering of the bishops, "over which you are pre-eminent through the great apostolic summit,which is in charge of all preists throught the world."[Mansi X, 867-70].

The conciliar acts contain a letter from Maurus, bishop of Ravenna, "to the most holy and most blessed, apostolic and universal pontiff throughout the world, Pope Martin." [Mansi X, 883-90].

Bishop Stephen of Dora explained the origins of the heresy, and said:

"And for this cause, we sometimes asked for...the wings of a dove..that we might fly away and announce these things to that Chair which rules and presides over all, that is to yours, the head and highest...For this it has been accustomned to do from of old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or spiritual authority, because the truly and great Peter, leader of the apostles, clearly was deemed worthy not only to be entrusted the keys of heaven, alone [and] apart from the rest worthy to open it to believers...." [Mansi X, 893].

A Greek and Armenian delegation of monks was led by John, abbot of St. Sabas, who described the council as meeting " by command of the one divinely presiding over you, priest of priests and father of fathers pre-eminent over all, our Lord Martin, the thrice blessed pope." [Mansi X, 903-5].

John continued."this is why we urge and implore you all, most holy fathers, and the apostolic and highest throne to anathematize heretics. The hearts of all look to you, after God, knowing that you have been established by Christ our God as leader ane head of the churches." [Mansi X, 905-8].

The notary Theophylact also stated:

"To my most holy and most blessed and divinely strenghtened master, father of fathers, archbishop and ecumenical patriarch...Sergius sends greetings in the Lord. O sacred summit, Christ our God has establisged your apostolic see as a fixed and immovable foundation, and a most luminous pillar of the faith. For you are, as the divine word rightly says, Peter, and upon your foundation have the pillars of the Church been fixed....[Mansi X, 911-14].

Theophylact also read an intervention, which three African councils had sent in 643:

"To the most blessed lord raised to the apostolic summit, the holy father of fathers, pope Theodore, supreme pontiff of all bishops, ...[Mansi X, 909].

Pope Martin observed that requests were coming in from all over the Catholic world, "imploring our apostolic and supreme see to arise in condemnation of the new doctrine." Mansi X, 923].

Maximus, primate of Aquileia, remarked that God "has raised up the holy spirit of a man burning with zeal for the Lord, whose venerable name [is] Martin, who has convoked us in holy fashion, and presides over us by apostolic authority." [Mansi X, 1055].

SAINT MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR

He was following the events regarding Pope Honorius closely. Writing to an abbot named Thalassius, he described the behavior of the Roman legates:

".....How much more is this the case with the Church and clergy of Rome, which from of old up to this time, as the eldest of all the churches under the sun, has the pre-eminence over all.. Having undoubtedly obtained this canonically, both from the councils and from the apostles as well as from their supreme principality, because of the eminence of her pontificate she is not bound to produce any writings of synodical letters, just as in these matters all are subject to her, in accordance with priestly law.........as firm ministers of the truly solid and immovable rock, that is, the greatest apostolic church....." [Mansi X, 677-8].


Saint Maximus also stated:

"....the Apostolic See, which from God the incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heaven...."[ PG 91: 144].

Do you agree with Sts. Theodore, Maximus and the Lateran Council? If not, why? These are Orthodox fathers.

My point is that Rome and the popes had greater authority then Saint Cyprian. The latter was wrong regarding rebaptism.

[Jean-Serge]

My point is that Rome and the popes had greater authority then Saint Cyprian. The latter was wrong regarding rebaptism.

Ido not deny the divine right but I understand it differently. The supreme pntiff may not have the right to do what he wants alone. My authority is not Saint Cyprian but the Canons of the Apostles that do not recognise heretical baptisms. Theses canons are regarded as coming from the Apostles directly.

[Evfimy]

The Seventh Ecumenical Council [787] was convened to refute and condemn the iconoclast heresy. Pope Hadrian was pope at that time. He sent a letter to the emperors, which was read at the second session of the council.

Part of his letter states:

"For the very prince of the apostles, Blessed Peter, who first sat upon the Apostolic See, left the principality of his apostleship and pastoral care to his successors, who were to sit perenially upon his most sacred see, [and] upon those pontiffs succeeding him he also, by a divine command, conferred the power of authority such as it was granted to him by the Lord God, our Savior..." [Mansi 12:1057].

We see in light of the above, the principality was legislated to Peter's successors in Rome, that their office is perenial, and that this is by divine authority.

Hadrian also referred to the Church as "...Catholic and apostolic and blameless Roman Church." [Mansi 12:1057-72].

This statement shows Honorius did not pollute the See of Rome. This See was blameless all the way up to Hadrian and the Seventh Ecumenical Council in the 8th century. Moreover his statements show Rome can never be infected with heretical pollution.

The letter continues:

St. Peter, "whose see, exercising the primacy throughout the world, has been constitued head of all the Churches of God...."[Mansi 12:1073-74].

The pope continued:

"...for throughout the world, the principality and authority were given by the very Redeemer of the world himself to Blessed Peter the apostle, and through the same apostle, whose place we hold, however unworthy, the holy, Catholic and apostolic Roman church has held up to now, and FOREVER HOLDS, the principality and the authority of power..." (emphasis mine). [Mansi 12:1074].

Cosmas the deacon, notary to the council, declared that the pope had written another letter."Let it be read," the council replied. [Mansi 12:1056-7].

Condemning iconoclaism as being contrary to the Fathers and the Apostolic See, the pope cited Matthew 16:18: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church..." adding:

"his see is preeminent throughout the world, holding the primacy, and is head of all the churches of God. Wherefore, the same Blessed Peter the apostle, by the Lord's command feeding the sheep...EVER HELD AND DOES RETAIN THE PRIMACY,"(emphasis mine). [Mansi 12:1077-84].

THE SYNOD AGREED

The council added: "the entire sacred synod so teaches." The legates said: "Let the holy synod tell us whether or not it accepts the letters of the most holy pope of old Rome." The council said:

"we follow them. receive them and admit them." [Mansi, 12:1084-6].

Several metropolitans spoke in approval of the popes letter. Constatine, bishop of Cyprus, said:

"In every respect I agree with the directive sent to our good rulers by Hadrian, the most holy pope of Old Rome..."[Mansi 12:1087].

[Evfimy]

Ido not deny the divine right but I understand it differently. The supreme pntiff may not have the right to do what he wants alone. My authority is not Saint Cyprian but the Canons of the Apostles that do not recognise heretical baptisms. Theses canons are regarded as coming from the Apostles directly.

My point is that the popes had authority over Cyprian. And the west never accepted all of the apostolic canons. There is no proof all 85 apostolic canons came from the apostles. Remember, Pope Stephen said "let there be no innovation." Cyprian was innovating an idea not held by the ancients, according to Pope Stephen.

[Evfimy]

I realize this information is unknown to the average Orthodox person.

[Evfimy]

Guettee (an ex-Catholic) is the best Orthodox seem able to do. His book was printed by an Episcopalian Bishop Coxe, who was another Pope-hater. The great Yankee-convert to Catholicism, philosopher Orestes Brownson, did a long Review of the book destroying its pretensions.