NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

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Maria
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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Post by Maria »

Lydia wrote:
Maria wrote:

Oedipus Rex, part of the "pagan" Greek classics, is a prefiguration of Christ's death on the Holy Cross, in that one man died for all of us. It was writings such as Oedipus Rex which prepared the Greeks to accept Christ.

When my husband and I were reading C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia, we were at a very low point in "our walk with Christ," so we decided that we needed to find another church. At that time, Cardinal Mahony was leading the Roman Catholic Church into the pit of Hell with his "liturgical revolutions," as he called them. We called an Orthodox Christian parish and made an appointment to see the priest. To my son's delight, the Orthodox Priest recommended that he read Lewis' Space Trilogy. That recommendation immediately delighted my son and opened him up to the catechumenate. While reading The Space Trilogy, my son studied the Holy Fathers, especially St. Justin. He also studied the Bible.

I was reading over this thread and I came to this post. In what way is Oedipus Rex ( isn't "rex" latin,? ) a prefiguration of Christ? He murdered his father and slept with his mother, didn't he? The story is an affirmation of the inexorability of destiny.

Yes, Oedipus Rex is from the Latin, but it is a classical Greek tragedy. The original name in Ancient Greek was Oedipus the King, Οἰδίπους Τύραννος, Oidipous Tyrannos.

King Oedipus had no knowledge that he was abandoned for dead as an infant. However, he was found by a shepherd and adopted by loving royal parents, who treated him like their own son. So, until he was challenged to research his birth heritage, he had no knowledge that he had killed his own biological father, the King, in a chance encounter. When Oedipus realized that he had married his own mother to assume the throne, he blinded himself and abdicated the throne in great sorrow.

Note that Sophocles wrote Oedipus Rex many years before the birth of Christ. There are so many parallels to Christ's life: The shepherds found Christ and worshipped Him as a King. Oedipus was found by a shepherd from certain death. Christ as an infant escaped death when Herald sought to kill him. While Joseph and the Theotokos escaped into Egypt with the Christ Child, Oedipus was given to a royal couple in another land. Then, throughout Oedipus Rex, it is repeated that it would be better for one man to die so that the people would be spared a famine. And Christ died for us, so that we could live eternally in the Heavenly Kingdom with Him.

Thus, Our Lord and God, prepared all the peoples of the world to accept Christ. First the Jews, through the inspired writings of the Old Testament, and then the Greeks, through the writings of Sophocles and others. However, we do not look upon Sophocles as an inspired prophet of God, nor do we honor his writings as we do the Holy Bible.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Post by Lydia »

For me, that's stretching the meaning of the play too far. I was taught that Sophocle's intention was to show the inevitability of fate; that when a man tries to escape his destiny, he fails by defying the gods.
Also, that the rule of law must be applied regardless of one's consciousness of wrongdoing. Thus, both Oedipus and Jocasta were guilty even though neither willfully broke the law of man and nature.
Naturally, these were object lessons for a more peaceful and orderly society.
Interesting analysis, nevertheless.

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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Post by Maria »

Lydia wrote:

For me, that's stretching the meaning of the play too far. I was taught that Sophocle's intention was to show the inevitability of fate; that when a man tries to escape his destiny, he fails by defying the gods.
Also, that the rule of law must be applied regardless of one's consciousness of wrongdoing. Thus, both Oedipus and Jocasta were guilty even though neither willfully broke the law of man and nature.
Naturally, these were object lessons for a more peaceful and orderly society.
Interesting analysis, nevertheless.

Yes, I was taught the same about Oedipus Rex. However, our English professor was also a Christian, and even though I was attending a public university, he allowed us to discuss the Church Fathers and the Bible, and the effect that Oedipus Rex has had on Christianity. In fact, didn't St. Paul reach out to the Greeks by asking them about the Unknown God in their pagan temple? Then didn't he explain to the Greeks about this God, who was unknown to them, and that St. Paul was chosen by this Unknown God to be a preacher to the Jews first and then to the Greeks and Gentiles?

I have been reading The Homilies: St. Gregory Palamas according to the Church calendar. These homilies show a profound wisdom gained from studying not only the Scriptures and the Early Church Fathers, but also Greek philosophy and the Greek classics.

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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Post by arcmode »

Quantum theory has become very entwined with the new-age, as a kind of scientific grounding for it's 'theology.' In particular the notion, popularized in books like 'The Secret,' that our thoughts, intentions and attitude affect reality on an invisible level, bringing us whatever we wish to manifest in our lives by virtue of the inter-connectedness of everything. This is an ancient belief of Buddhism, and is also inherent in quantum mechanics, along with the notion that by observing reality, we change it. Although, as Christians, we recognize that everything is connected because everything comes from, and belongs to God, who is everywhere present and fills all things, we also believe that these things exist first in God's mind, not in ours. Quantum theory represents a break from the classical idea that creation is separate from it's creator, and allows for miraculous events such as time travel etc. from within the workings of creation, rather than by an over-riding of natures laws by God's will.

I tried very hard to understand QT for ages, and read a lot about it, but, like relativity, could never really wrap my head around it. Even it's proponents state clearly that QT cannot be understood rationally. It wasn't until I came across the work of these guys: http://www.commonsensescience.org/ that I read a really good refutation of QT and an alternative theory that actually works better, called the spinning charged ring theory of the electron.

Here is a little bit from the site:

Quantum Reality

Modern physicists do not have a single picture of "the way the world really is;" instead there are eight ideas of "quantum reality." These eight views of reality are quite different; yet all are considered by leading scientists to be valid, or a least successful in terms of explaining experiments.

Worldviews of Prominent Physicists and Philosophers

There is no deep reality.
Reality is created by observation.
Reality is an undivided wholeness.
Reality consists of a steadily increasing number of parallel universes.
The world obeys a non-human kind of reasoning.
The world is made of ordinary objects.
Consciousness creates reality.
The world is twofold, consisting of potentials and actualities

Scientists will admit that quantum theories do not correspond to "common sense"---meaning, the law of cause and effect. The principal features of quantum theory contradict "cause and effect" relationships by assuming that random, spontaneous events can and do occur within a quantified limit (specified by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle).

The majority of leading modern physicists seriously believe the first view; "There is no deep reality" and claim that there is no objective reality. For them, "physics is not physical, but metaphysical."

The common sense science people are are Christians, which is why you won't hear about their models and theories on the television (the worst place to seek an education in science.) One important point they make is that QT is based on point particles, particles with an infinitely small physical reality. Although this is clearly impossible, as everything created must take up space in some way, the mathematical models based on this assumption do correspond do a large degree with observation and experimentation. However, just because something works mathematically, does not mean it has a corresponding reality in the real world, it remains an abstraction even if it is able to predict observation, like the way the geocentric model still predicted planetary motions just as well as the heliocentric model does, even though one had Earth at the center and one had the sun at the center.

The same thing happens in Astronomy. Take dark matter for example. when it was observed that the stars at the edge of the galaxy rotated at the same speed as the stars at the center, this represented a breakdown of newtonian mechanics. The outer stars, according to the laws of gravity, should be rotating more slowly. Gravitational law was not in effect on the galactic scale as it was on the solar system scale. Instead of admitting that they did not understand how galaxies and their motion worked, the astronomers just added heaps more matter into the equations simulating galactic motion, called it dark matter (since it had never been, and couldn't be observed) and the computer simulations of galaxies matched the observation. But that does not mean that there is something called dark matter holding galaxies together so they work the way they do, it just shows that the astronomers were not able to admit that their theories had broken down and needed to be revised.

QT does the same thing. It relies on computer simulations, that scientists take for reality, in order to theorize about creation. Unfortunately, most of these popular scientists, who get to go on t.v, do not believe in a creator separate from the creation, and so they believe that all reality, even the invisible world, can be expressed mathematically, and even though they do not have the perfect equation yet, that can express the totality of how things work, they really do think that they are going to someday achieve that, but in their refusal to admit their ignorance, and the difficulty of getting research funded that lies outside the mainstream theories, they are only getting further and further away from the truth.

I highly recommend Orthodox Christians visit the common sense science website and read especially the 'Models of matter,' 'Science History' and 'Science philosophy,' sections of the site. Doing this enabled me to understand why I didn't have to try to force myself to accept QT, and that there are alternatives that are more consistent with a Christian worldview.

More and more the new-age, neo-pantheist movement is relying on QT to back up their worldview and it's good to be able to answer thier claims with a logical argument against it. If we simply accept QT or try to reconcile it with our faith, it becomes more difficult to debate new-agey people because while we struggle to integrate QT into Christian theology, for them it is a perfect fit.

Here is a bit more from the CSS site:

Our Consistent Approach to Life

The two worldviews of origins, development, and nature of physical reality are known as atomism and creationism. The former is basically pantheistic evolution, while the latter is the Judeo-Christian worldview. The fundamental beliefs of either philosophy of life require assumptions and a theory of matter to integrate science and religious beliefs.

Many investigative minds have noticed that the assumptions and conclusions of modern science based on quantum theory and Einstein's theory of relativity are very different from those of the classical science of Galileo, Newton, Ampere, Faraday, and Maxwell. The two systems of thought are mutually exclusive, although modern science tries to build upon classical science because (1) basic laws of classical science are too well established to ignore and (2) modern science would be incredible without the underlying support of classical science.

The assumptions of the Judeo-Christian worldview are compatible and generally identical with the assumptions and methods of classical science. This permits one to integrate his religion and science and have a consistent approach to life.

True science and Judeo-Christian approaches depend upon at least three underlying assumptions: The first unprovable assumption states that the world is real, and the human mind is capable of understanding the nature of that reality. Classical scientists believe that physical objects have an objective, on-going existence. Modern scientists of the Western world generally hold to a view of "quantum reality" that objects exist or come into existence through an observation or measurement. Cornell physicist N. David Mermin says, for example, "We now know that the moon is demonstrably not there when nobody looks." Many Eastern wise men and even some modern Western scientists take a similar but more subjective view that the only reality is the idea that exists in one's mind.

The second assumption of science specifies causality, the law of cause and effect. This is a rational or reasonable approach in the sense that events are preceded by a cause and happen because of a cause. For example, classical scientists use force laws to specify how one object can have an effect upon another object. Modern science claims, on the other hand, that objects can move, emit force, and emit light on a random and spontaneous basis, independent of any cause.

The third assumption of science postulates unity in the universe. This unity applies to two major areas of physics: force laws and the structure of matter. The force laws should hold for all scales, over nuclear or galactic distances. Spectral emission of hydrogen gas should be the same for hydrogen in a star or hydrogen on earth since the material structure is assumed to be the same. To some degree, modern science has departed from the concept of unity by specifying "strong" and "weak" forces that extend over a very short distance and only exist in the nucleus or when certain particles disintegrate.

Do not be shocked by those who teach new doctrines but seem to be worthy of credence. Stand solidly like an anvil under blows. A good athlete suffers blows but wins. St Ignatius.

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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Post by Cyprian »

jgress wrote:

I think the answer is very similar to the answer an educated but pious Orthodox Christian in Byzantium would give if challenged for promoting the virtues of the pagan classics, like Homer and the tragedians:

A few things to consider:

1) These Greek poets wrote several centuries prior to the coming of Christ, and so had at least a small measure of excuse, since the world was in darkness until Christ came and enlightened and illumined the hearts of men. Now that Christ has come, what need have we for the folly of these monstrous fables?

2) Many people do not classify the fantasy works of Lewis as "pagan" literature, but try to pass them off as "Christian allegory". So comparing his writings to pre-Christian pagan poetry which never claimed any Christian origin is like comparing apples to oranges.

3) The Holy Fathers I recall reading did not find any "virtues" in the pagan classics, rather they clearly repudiated them! Perhaps I am not well read enough. I will tell you what. I will post quotes from the fathers that I have found supporting my view, and you can post quotes from the fathers that you deem to support your assertions. Then we will compare. I will start:

St. Justin Martyr - The Discourse to the Greeks:

"Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God. For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance."

"Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer.
But since, next to Homer, Hesiod wrote his Works and Days, who will believe his drivelling theogony?"

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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Post by Cyprian »

jgress wrote:

In Lewis' universe, there is good magic and bad magic, and the good magic is performed with faith in the figure of Aslan, who is clearly an allegorical figure of Christ in the fables.

There is no such thing as "good" magic or "good" witches. This is all demonic trickery, and Scripture and Holy Church condemns ALL forms of magic.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18 Nowhere does Scripture affirm that believers ought to attempt to distinguish between "good" witches and "evil" witches, and allow the "good" ones to live. It says Harry Potter and his witch friends should be put to death. Period.

Aslan is a roaring lion. I do not see Aslan as an allegorical figure of Christ, rather I see him as an allegorical figure of Antichrist. Christ is a lion, but recall, so the devil "as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."

I don't think it's possible to read the Narnia books and come away with the notion that just any kind of magic is good, or that there is not a profound struggle between good and evil in which we must take sides.

NO magic is good! Period. Read your bible.

Even if superficially Lewis' fantasy does not contradict Christian morals,

Ah, but they do!

It is true that, for me, the Narnia tales are not the most profound of Lewis' works in terms of religious thought; essays like "Abolition of Man" are better and have played more of a role in my own journey towards faith. But I think it's preposterous to argue that Lewis was subtly promoting occultism or satanism (or pedophilia!!). I have no reason to believe that was his intention or that this has ever been the effect of his writings on anyone.

That is exactly what he has done, weaving pagan and occult concepts into his fantasy literature, preparing the way for the advent of Antichrist, in a subtle but sneaky way. But before one can recognize this, they must start with the basics, and understand the basic Christian teaching that there is no such thing as "good" magic, or "good" witches. Period.

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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Post by jgress »

You could basically read the entire "Address to young men on the right use of Greek literature".

He says of Homer:

"Now as I have heard from one skillful in interpreting the mind of a poet, all the poetry of Homer is a praise of virtue, and with him all that is not merely accessory tends to this end."

I think most readers today are grown-up enough to realize that Homer and Hesiod and other pagan authors don't give accurate accounts of gods and heroes. People commonly recognize that such figures are fictional; in St Justin's day, there were many pagans who took these stories seriously, as factually true, so it was necessary to state plainly that were fictional. But we can still read them for things like the beauty of the poetry, for universally applicable moral principles, or for their historical or linguistic interest.

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