The RC church: it has come to this

[Joe Zollars]

I must admit folks that I am fairly upset about this. The way it looks, your using a Vagante Sect to attempt to lure a person who it seems is rather upset aobut the whole situation with these folks to leave the RC and become Dox. If I got it wrong please correct me. Would it be proper to use the scandal of the new calandrists and hocna to lure people out of the ORthodox Church? of course it would not. This is similar to using a scandal created by the Lutherans to get someone to leave the SSPX. It is a preposterous position.

Sues57, if you intend to stay RC, find the nearest Latin Mass chapel and never give the NO or these heretics a second thought.

Joe Zollars

[尼古拉前执事]

Do you agree that Pope Honorius was a heretic?

Papal infallibility--read carefully now--protects that Pope from error when he publicly proclaims a dogma as binding on the whole Church.

This is exactly what Patriarch Sergius asked for. A proclamation of dogma of what the whole Church teaches and believes.

[Joe Zollars]

yes. It was needed in the west to combat the sebalian heresy. It has been kept in the west because there are many heresies that have stemmed from teh sebellian heresy that continue to corupt the minds and hearts of the faithful. Don't believe me? just head to the neares NO Church and listen to the homily (warning--may cause you to run for the hills and/or die of a heartattack on the spot). When such heresies are completely repudiated in the west, than the filioque will no longer be needed and will be done away with.

Joe Zollars

[Joe Zollars]

umm Nik. You seemed to have missed the word "publically."

since when does your private correspondance with say your mom or some other member of your family become public? probably not until in the future when they are preparing to glorify St. Nicholas of the Great White North

Joe Zollars

[尼古拉前执事]

Since when does a letter of instruction when asking on behalf of the whole Church constitute as private?

[Joe Zollars]

since when does a letter not designated as an "open letter" constitute a public statemetn.

For the charism of infallability to be invoked, it is a tenant of hte Catholic Church, that the Pope HIMSELF must stand (or properly sit on the Papal Throne) and make a proclamation before numerous witnesses and be transcribed and put on public display. but it must be a verbal and written proclamation.

There have only been two times that the Charism of Infallability has been excercised in all fo Church History.

Joe Zollars

[Justin Kissel]

Joe,

That's the strangest "take" on the filioque I've ever heard. Imagine, a "special weapon" dogma (you would say doctrine) that can split a church for over a thousand years, and then be withdrawn quite easily at any point... and it all depends on how close the Church is to slipping into an ancient heresy!

Nik,

FWIW--and I certainly don't think my experience is extensive--I've found that the Pope Honorius issue (like 99% of the other arguments in this debate) ultimately only leads to a stalemate. It's that way with everything. Filioque/purgatory/other dogmas (are they "innovations"?). Church Fathers on the place of Peter. It all seems to go back and forth. Both sides can give examples for what they believe. I've found that the best thing is just to give historical example from the saints (e.g., How did St. Justinian treat the Popes? How did the East respond when the Pope rejected part of the 2nd Ecumenical Council? How did Gregory the Theologian and others (Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, etc.) respond when the Pope of Rome (with the Pope of Alexandria to boot!) fought against Meletios--not to mention how the Pope of Rome was certainly no friend of Gregory the Theologian himself at that time?) People could sit here and exchange proof texts all day... so unless you have something important at issue... um, well I don't see the point. Anyway, there's some unasked-for thoughts