The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

Pravo,

The fact is that none of us knows who he could be. It's all speculations. And THAT is the fact.

Don't get obsessed with trying to figure it out. I'm sure, all of us will be wrong.

The anti-christ will be revealed when he will take over...to "save" mankind. It will be instant and ALL will see him, at once. And t.v. doesn't count.

Anti-christ will deceive even the elect: so why are you so sure of yourself? Are you above the elect?

How about bringing it down a notch with some humility? How do you think YOU will stay so aware, if even the elect will be fooled?

All those who, like Cyprian, would say, "Don't ask... Don't tell..." imply that the scriptures and prophecies are not to be contemplated or discussed, even in Orthodox circles.

All those, including myself, realize that we are far from having the right to discuss the Scriptures and Prophesies. We should be taught(by the holy fathers), not teach or discuss(with each other). We are like 5 year olds discussing how to raise children. We have nil spiritual lives, compared to the saints who taught the Scriptures and you think you are at the level of the holy fathers?

It's better for us to share what we read from the holy fathers, but certainly not to take the stance of authority of knowledge, like you do.

Tone it down a notch. A little humilty won't kill ya.

Obama has adopted the positions of every liberal special interest and lobby groups. I don't know if he is Anthchrist, but he is definately working for him.

Evfimy

"It's better for us to share what we read from the holy fathers, but certainly not to take the stance of authority of knowledge, like you do."

Joanna,

   A few thoughts.  In the holy tradition of Israel--even, of course, during the earthly life of the Lord--there was always a focus on the contemplation and discussion of the holy scriptures. The Jews rightly believed that their sacred texts were from God, and that they needed to be carefully preserved, studied, and discussed in relation to particular situations.  For example, the Lord once asked some fellow Jews, "What say you of the Christ?  Who's son is He?"  When they responded, "King David's son," the Lord responded, "How then does David call him 'Lord,' when he writes, 'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit Thou at my right hand until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool?"

    I mention this example as an indication of how deeply the Jews contemplated and discussed the holy scriptures.  In the lives of the Orthodox saints, one will often see the same intimate knowledge and contemplation of scriptures, prophecies, and their significance.  Think, for example, of the Desert Fathers, or of St. Seraphim of Sarov.  How, then, can it be inappropriate for us, members of the Church, to contemplate and discuss these important matters?  We are not mere Roman Catholic "sheep," who are supposed to accept everything that we are told on mere authority, which has, at times, been misguided and fallible.  God gave us a capacity for reason and contemplation.

    I will not judge you, as you have judged me, but I might ask, are you quite certain that I lack humility merely because I do not lack curiosity in matters of fact and faith?

I mention this example as an indication of how deeply the Jews contemplated and discussed the holy scriptures. In the lives of the Orthodox saints, one will often see the same intimate knowledge and contemplation of scriptures, prophecies, and their significance. Think, for example, of the Desert Fathers, or of St. Seraphim of Sarov. How, then, can it be inappropriate for us, members of the Church, to contemplate and discuss these important matters?

First of all, Jesus Christ, being God, asked them the question for their sake. HE WAS TEACHING. He was present as God, and He wanted to teach them. He didn't form a discussion circle and tell them to go ahead and debate the contemplation of God.

Who here, besides you, believes that he or she has the right to preach about God and who has the complete authority to preach others about God?

And we see where those jews who "contemplated" about God, ended up. Christ even pointed out that the jews were hypocrites because they had the Scriptures and didn't understand the meaning. St. Paul explained their errors in sticking to their beliefs in opposition to the truth revealed by Christ, God Himself, in the Book of Hebrews.

The point Christ and St. Paul were stating was that the Holy Scriptures should be contemplated in the righteousness of God....and I read this from the holy fathers, who were living in the Holy Spirit and were CHOSEN by God to teach others, even if they wanted to seclude themselves in constant worship; but God exposed them to the people, in order to guide them. Are we one of these holy fathers?

You seem more like you are preaching as a Protestant and arguing and not listening.

How, then, can it be inappropriate for us, members of the Church, to contemplate and discuss these important matters?

Because WE are not THE HOLY FATHERS! WE are children discussing deep spiritual matters when we are still full of PASSIONS. The holy fathers reached dispassion and a constant union with the Holy Spirit. The HOLY SPIRIT fed them the knowledge. Haven't you ever noticed, in their writings that they always excused themselves for being unworthy and lower than everyone else? Because they knew that the spiritual knowledge they imparted to others were not due to their intellect. The closer they came to God(as close as is humanly possible - in heart, mind and soul), the more they apologized for their sinful nature.

I don't see YOU taking that stance. You continue to futher plod through the mud of irrationality with the guise of high spiritual intelligence.

We are not mere Roman Catholic "sheep," who are supposed to accept everything that we are told on mere authority, which has, at times, been misguided and fallible. God gave us a capacity for reason and contemplation.

Well, as an Orthodox, I trust the holy fathers of Orthodoxy as they were entrusted by the Holy Spirit to teach us, even to this day. The papists became quite obvious in their apostacy, so yes, at this point, I would use reasoning concerning WHO I listened to.

God gave us reasoning to distinguish lies from truths. And He gave us a soul, to recognize Him when we contemplate with our hearts...DURING PRAYER.

But, the contemplation you insist on, is worldly and acedemic. We cannot figure out the mysteries of God, by acedemic, "theological" discussions. We are to reach the goal of union with the Holy Spirit, in prayer and fasting and repentence.

And if you have read anything about the lives of saints, then you will see that their instructions came after many years of ascetic struggles which includes the three factors, I mentioned above and others.

That is why I say that these discussions about the anti-christ and trying to figure out who it is, is mere speculations. Because I realize that I am nowhere near being in the state that the holy fathers or holy mothers were in, when they lived on this earth.

I will not judge you, as you have judged me, but I might ask, are you quite certain that I lack humility merely because I do not lack curiosity in matters of fact and faith?

I'm not judging. I'm observing. You are going beyond curiosity. I was curious about Orthodoxy, when I was a papist. And so I learnt the truth and God led me to Orthodoxy. YOU, on the other hand, want to establish authority of KNOWLEDGE, for something you know nothing about.

You've already condemned Obama to be the anti-christ.

THAT'S JUDGING!

Joanna,

  To reiterate, I never once said that Barak Obama [i][b]is[/b] [/i]the Antichrist, as you insist.  I simply raised a question for discussion and reflection in this sincere, Orthodox Christian forum: "I[i]s Barak Obama the Antichrist[/i]?"  Frankly, I was looking for meaningful Orthodox commentary and dialogue on this important subject, with reference to the teachings of the Church and the Holy Fathers.

   I appreciate your comments about the inspired wisdom of the saints, and agree with it entirely.  There may, however, be some among us, not counting myself, who have some measure of [i]hagia sophia[/i].  I would also question your notion that divinely inspired wisdom is necessarily inaccessible to our intellect, or inconsistent with our God-given capacity for reason and contemplation of the divine revelations from scripture and the lives of the saints.

I would also question your notion that divinely inspired wisdom is necessarily inaccessible to our intellect, or inconsistent with our God-given capacity for reason and contemplation of the divine revelations from scripture and the lives of the saints.

You take my statement out of context. I didn't say it was inaccessible. As a matter of fact, I questioned your union to It and asked whether there was someone here who did have the "access". Nobody has responded yet.

Also, our reasoning and contemplation is rooted in our sins that seperate us from God, so the reasoning and contemplation that you believe is our right, can only be acheived when we have reached the level of dispassion as the saints have...otherwise, you are stating that we can discuss matters of such high spiritual context, that the saints do and we don't even live anything like they did(well, I don't - maybe you do).

It is a dangerous route, to believe that you have achieved such a privelege. When people start to impose their "view" of how they interpret the Scriptures, then the first thought that comes to my mind is...Pharasee.

In all seriousness, I am saying that we should understand that we have NO spiritual knowledge except remembering that we should read the holy fathers.

Let's share what we have read from them and stop trying to figure out who the anti-christ is. We know what he is about, but I or you can die tomorrow and then this conversation will be nothing to the one that dies. The anti-christ is in the world, but we can still die tomorrow.

Let's be friends and talk about stuff. Meaning, I don't think Obama is THE anti-christ. Nobody will know until God will allow it to be revealed.

When St. John Maximovitch stated that the anti-christ was born...he didn't give a name. Why not? If it was so obvious, as you state, then why didn't he say, the boy born by the name Obsama? Because, it is not meant for us to know now.

Let me ask you this...if St. John Maximovitch and all the saints, did not give a name then why do you believe that you are so sure?

It's prelest. Stop obessing and work on your salvation, by repentance. You may die tomorrow and I may too..work for the treasures in God's Kingdom.

It is always very disturbing to me to see how much effort we put in to "study" the Antichrist, especially when that is not what we are supposed to be doing.

When I was a very young woman, the subject of the antichrist and the end of times came up in one of our Saturday "sunday" school lessons. Our priest gave a reply which has stayed with me through out the years. He said that not even the angels know when the end will be or when the Antichrist will come. So if God hasn't let the angels in on the knowledge, what makes us think that we will have the discernment?

Every generation since earliest Christianity has had the possiblity of an antichrist and there have even been "little" antichrists, but something in every generation has stopped the Antichrist from appearing. That "something" might well be those Christians who have devoted their time and effort in their salvation.

Joasia was right........Our salvation....THAT is where our effort should be. If you can answer the question..." Am I ready to face my God, with all that is on my soul?"... with an unequivocal yes, then go ahead and waste your time on the antichrist. However, if is the answer to the question is a resounding (or not) NO, then maybe you should be concentrating on what to do to gain your salvation. The Antichrist will appear whether or not we want him to and when the time is deemed for him to come.

In the meantime I, personally, will be trying to atone and to gain salvation in whatever weak way that I can.

Katya