Iconophili's Great Big Thread of Conspiracies!

[AndyHolland]

The last page is most instructive on some of the consultants called in, including:

Ron Dokell president, Demolition Consultants

Yates Gladwell pilot, VF Corp.

Michael K. Hynes, Ed.D.,
ATP, CFI, A&P/IA president, Hynes Aviation Services; expert, aviation crashes

Ed Jacoby Jr. director,
New York State Emergency Management Office (Ret.); chairman, New York State Disaster Preparedness Commission (Ret.)

Mark Stahl photographer; eyewitness, United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene

Air Defense
Lt. Col. Skip Aldous (Ret.) squadron commander,
U.S. Air Force

Tech. Sgt. Laura Bosco public affairs officer,
Tyndall Air Force Base

Boston Center regional air traffic control

Laura Brown spokeswoman,
Federal Aviation Administration

Todd Curtis, Ph.D. founder, Airsafe.com; president, Airsafe.com Foundation

Keith Halloway public affairs officer, National Transportation Safety Board

Ted Lopatkiewicz director, public affairs, National Transportation Safety Board

Maj. Douglas Martin public affairs officer,
North American Aerospace Defense Command

Lt. Herbert McConnell public affairs officer,
Andrews AFB

Michael Perini public affairs officer, North American Aerospace Defense Command

John Pike director, GlobalSecurity.org

Hank Price spokesman, Federal
Aviation Administration

Warren Robak RAND Corp.

Bill Shumann spokesman,
Federal Aviation Administration

Louis Walsh public affairs officer, Eglin AFB

Chris Yates aviation security editor, analyst, Jane’s Transport

Aviation
Fred E.C. Culick, Ph.D., S.B., S.M. professor of aeronautics, California Institute of Technology

Robert Everdeen public affairs, Northrop Grumman

Clint Oster professor of public and environmental affairs, Indiana University; aviation safety expert

Capt. Bill Scott (Ret. USAF) Rocky Mountain bureau chief, Aviation Week
Bill Uher News Media Office, NASA Langley Research Center

Col. Ed Walby (Ret. USAF)
director, business development, HALE Systems Enterprise, Unmanned Systems, Northrop Grumman

Image Analysis
William F. Baker member, FEMA Probe Team; partner, Skidmore, Owings, Merrill

W. Gene Corley, Ph.D., P.E., S.E. senior vice president, CTL Group; director,
FEMA Probe Team

Bill Daly senior vice president, Control Risks Group

Steve Douglass image analysis consultant, Aviation Week

Thomas R. Edwards, Ph.D. founder, TREC; video forensics expert.

Ronald Greeley, Ph.D. professor of geology, Arizona State University

Rob Howard freelance photographer; WTC eyewitness

Robert L. Parker, Ph.D. professor of geophysics,
University of California, San Diego

Structural Engineering / Building Collapse
Farid Alfawakhiri, Ph.D. senior engineer, American Institute of Steel Construction

David Biggs, P.E. structural engineer, Ryan-Biggs Associates; member, ASCE team for FEMA report

Robert Clarke structural engineer, Controlled Demolitions Group Ltd.

Glenn Corbett technical editor, Fire Engineering; member, NIST advisory committee

Vincent Dunn deputy fire chief (Ret.), FDNY; author, The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety

John Fisher, Ph.D. professor of civil engineering, Lehigh University; professor emeritus, Center for Advanced Technology; member, FEMA Probe Team

Ken Hays executive vice president, Masonry Arts

Christoph Hoffmann, Ph.D. professor of computer science, Purdue University; project director, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University

Allyn E. Kilsheimer, P.E.
CEO, KCE Structural Engineers PC; chief structural engineer, Phoenix project; expert in blast recovery, concrete structures, emergency response

Won-Young Kim, Ph.D. seismologist, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University

William Koplitz photo desk manager, FEMA

John Labriola freelance photographer, WTC survivor

Arthur Lerner-Lam, Ph.D. seismologist; director,
Earth Institute, Center for Hazards and Risk Research, Columbia University

James Quintiere, Ph.D. professor of engineering, University of Maryland member, NIST advisory committee

Steve Riskus freelance photographer; eyewitness, Pentagon crash

Van Romero, Ph.D. vice president, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology

Mete Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. Kettelhut Distinguished Professor of Structural Engineering, Purdue University; member, Pentagon Building Performance Report; project conception, September 11 Pentagon Attack Simulations Using LS-Dyna, Purdue University

Shyam Sunder, Sc.D.
acting deputy director, lead investigator, Building and Fire Research Laboratory, National Institute of Standards and Technology

Forman Williams, Ph.D. professor of engineering, physics, combustion, University of California,
San Diego; member, advisory committee, National Institute of Standards and Technology

andy holland
sinner

[Ebor]

1. Jet fuel burnns off after around 850 Degrees, steel melts at 2200 Degrees

and steel doesn't go from solid to liquid instantly. I guess you don't have any experience with metals and heat, like soldering or making lost wax casting but I do. From the Popular Mechanics article, since I suspect that you do not actually read other people's links that show the errors in your conspiracy theories, from this page:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... page=4&c=y

"FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength--and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat."

Oh and just to repeat, it wasn't just fuel burning but furnishings, carpets and lots and lots of paper.

BTW you said 10's of Thousands saw the planes hit the Pentagon, I knew you were exageration, now you changed you saying to "Plenty of people" insted of 10's of thousands,

And again, the "10's of Thousands" is the number for both the New York area and the DC area. Your misunderstanding of Mr. Holland's English is not catching him in any mistake or "exaggeration"

Ebor

[Ebor]

AND his statement doesn't proove the hundreds of other people's statements that it was some sort of CruiseMissile were wrong.

"Hundreds"? I don't recall you providing "hundreds" of quotes that it was "some sort of Cruise Missile". But since, as far as I know, you do not live in the DC/Northern VA/Maryland area and I do, I don't accept your assertions on anything about that.

I know real people who know more about it and experienced it. Have you actually read any of the Popular Mechanics article that Mr. Holland has kindly posted twice?

I suspect though, that you will neither actually answer any questions put to you, nor read other articles. That is the differnce. Those who disagree with you read the conspiracy materials and find the mistakes, the half-truths, the out of contexts and the like. They read both sides. You, it would seem, do not

Ebor

[Ebor]

Thank You for FALLING into my TRAP, because I know one of you would use that excuse BASED on assumtions, 1. You assume that TWC were visable from 25,000 feet in the sky, when they first came into NYC they were that high,

Trap is it? I guess you haven't flown much, or maybe you don't study maps. I did a google for any pictures of Manhattan from "25000 feet" and found one. Manhattan is an island between the Hudson and the East River, with Long Island to the East and New Jersey to the West. The photo I found shows all of this quite clearly. And as can be seen, NYC is not one long mass of "skyscrapers" there are 'clumps' as it were, one on the south end and one in midtown just below Central Park. Have you ever actually been anywhere near NYC?

Since the WTC was at the south end of Manhattan and quite the tallest buildings for hundreds of miles it wasn't hidden.
http://community.webshots.com/album/265256302cfziTf
The photo in question is the middle one in the first row, fyi.

there no way first timers could distinguish TWC from other buildings from 20/25,000 feet in the air from 5/600 feet yes but not 15-20,000 feet,

You're changing your numbers. 5/600 feet? You could tell it was the WTC from the New Jersey Turnpike miles away.
Here's a shot of lower Manhattan from the air the fall of 2000:
http://cgi.astrology.ca/bjasmine/wallpa ... ity15.html

The WTC sure stands out.

Your rant about government seems to be directed at someone else. I don't recall getting into Executive branch works with you before.

(P.S. I already told you twice why I called you a heathen, so go back and read what I posted.)

Ah, but you see, as near as I can make it out, to you "Heathen" is just a label that means that someone is presenting facts that don't agree with your assertions. That is not any of the standard definitions of "heathen".

You do not speak for EO (being a layperson as far as we know) nor even have offered any proof that you are EO or understand how EO looks at historical facts and data. My saying that people in general are living longer now then in earlier times due to improved sanitation and medicine and giving links to CDC articles is not heathen in that it does not deny God, nor support Norse pagan religion. Your personal defintion of a word is not accepted.

I found the first time you used this label, it's on what is now page 10 of this (thank you mods) combined thread:

Look you Heathen according to our Church teaching people where not living a shorter life span in the past, that is a non-Orthodox teaching,

"According to our Church teaching" you wrote. Can you provide any citations, quotes or links to actually show that your claim really is an EO "church teaching"? Thank you.

Ebor

[Ebor]

btw, Mr. Holland. You and I may disagree on some things. But I want to thank you for the links to the "Popular Mechanics" pages. Very clear, interesting and well done. It's interesting how they talk to people cited by the conspiracy supporters and find out what they really said and how the groups touted by Mr/Ms. Iconophili are misquoting and taking things out of context. Not surprising. Why bother with the truth when it doesn't support your conspiracies?

Ebor

edited to correct spelling

WHAT did I misqout?, I have NEVER used "Popular Mechanics" for any type of Referance??

Obviously not, since the articles cited give good information that counters your assertions.

Please note the sentence structure I used:
"...how the groups touted by Mr./Ms. Iconophil are misquoting...." The verb "misquoting" is attached to "the groups touted" not to you.

Ebor

[CGW]

1. Jet fuel burnns off after around 850 Degrees, steel melts at 2200 Degrees, according to the government the fire foams fell from the building when the planes hit.

First of all, jet fuel can burn a lot hotter than 850F; thats the bottom end of the scale. And at any rate, as has been said over and over, the principal fuel was paper and office funishings. With either of these materials, it's easy enough to produce temperatures up to 1500F. And of course, it's isn't necessary to heat steel to melting in order to weaken it, as anyone who has ever seen a blacksmith in action can tell you.

Second,

BTW you said 10's of Thousands saw the planes hit the Pentagon, I knew you were exageration, now you changed you saying to "Plenty of people" insted of 10's of thousands,

I never said that.

Here are accurate quotes from a prior post:

" dozens of commuters on the highway saw the plane fly in and crash."

and

"And besides, the flight of the plane into the south tower of the WTC is simply beyond denial. Thousands of people saw it; it was caught on film from many angles."

BTW very soon the Gov will blow up a Nuke in a major City and blame Iran and thats how there going to get the war with Iran started.

If they attack Iran anyway, without such a pretext, will you cofess your error?

[CGW]

AND his statement doesn't proove the hundreds of other people's statements that it was some sort of CruiseMissile were wrong.

It would, since there are no such statements.