The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

Ekaterina wrote:

It is always very disturbing to me to see how much effort we put in to "study" the Antichrist, especially when that is not what we are supposed to be doing.

Don't let the perusal of understanding trouble you, especially since we can not decipher the amount of energy anyone puts into their salvation. What we do see in others never reveals the state of their whole soul, thus even when we see a man commit sin, we are not always able to tell when, where or if he has repented. Not to say that seeking understanding is a sin, but if anything should bother us, let it be attributed to things that are unseemly and not an others desire to seek the Truth.

He said that not even the angels know when the end will be or when the Antichrist will come. So if God hasn't let the angels in on the knowledge, what makes us think that we will have the discernment?

I'm afraid that this statement is just plain wrong. The scriptures do not indicate that we will NOT know when the Antichrist nor the end times will come.

On the contrary, the Lord makes it quiet plain when the end time "season" will be at hand. What we do not know is when the great tribulation will end and when Our Lord will return to earth. THAT day is the day we are left unaware of.

Matthew 24:
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Nevertheless, if we lack discernment and understanding even the plain teachings left to us become obscure. The Lord however, in His mercy and love for us has granted us men that were filled with the grace of the Holy Spirit to make His teachings clear to us. He gave us the Holy Fathers and amongst their writings we can find volumes dedicated to the end times and the Antichrist.

We can choose to find and read these materials or we can discard the whole topic as one we will never (or should never) understand. It's up to us, but to say that these things can not be made known to us is an error because through the Fathers many of these things we have questioned here, have already been answered.

The problem is that many people will renounce the topic as all together taboo and in the same breath while turning away from the actual writings left to us on the topic, will profess that the topic is a great mystery that we will never understand. It's like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

We have to realize that while the Book of Revelation is the most controversial book of the bible, it is still scripture and the best way to read it is with the help and interpretations of the Fathers.

That is perhaps why some people seem to "obsess" on this topic. Because unlike many other books of the bible, the interpretations and commentaries on the Book of Revelation are a bit more obscure and difficult to find.

Every generation since earliest Christianity has had the possiblity of an antichrist and there have even been "little" antichrists, but something in every generation has stopped the Antichrist from appearing. That "something" might well be those Christians who have devoted their time and effort in their salvation.

I don't think anything has "stopped" the Antichrist from coming except for the Word of God. All things happen according to His plan. Gods plans are not always clear to us and sometimes we assume to know too much. This fallen presumption to know Gods plan is what leads some people to come up with actual erroneous dates, not only for when the end times will be, but for the actual day that the Lord Himself will return!

If we manage to understand why things happen when they do, it is a gift, because it boils down to the amount of grace which God has bestowed upon us.

Which leads me back to the Fathers, those who being filled with grace and having the gift of understanding all agree that the greatest signs of the end times would be the establishment of the third temple in Jerusalem and the coming of the King of Israel (whom they call the Antichrist).

In the meantime I, personally, will be trying to atone and to gain salvation in whatever weak way that I can.

I couldn't agree more. Especially since my end can come today and the end of the world may come many, many years from now.

I certainly agree that, regardless of when the Antichrist appears in the world, we should all focus on working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I also agree with all of the above comments attesting to the fact that true knowledge of these mysteries may only come to us only from the Holy Fathers and the accepted teachings of the Church. That is one reason that I began this entire thread by talking about a saying attributed to our Holy Father St. John the Wonderworker of San Francisco regarding the birth of the Antichrist, whom the Fathers describe not as an abstract symbol or Jungian archetype, but as an actual man, in the flesh, who will deceive many through apparent humanitarianism, charisma, and even magic. The other issues that I have raised on this thread have all been in direct relation to the holy scriptures or sayings of the Holy Fathers on the subject. My intention is to learn more, and also to share information.

     Incidentally, it is wrong, in my humble opinion, to dismiss all contemplation of scripture as "Phariseeism."  "Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the contemplation of the Law.." St. Paul, himself, the Apostle to the Gentiles, was a Pharisee who spent many years in contemplation of the Torah and the mysteries of scripture.  After Christ God revealed himself to St. Paul on the road to Damascus he was finally able to clearly see the depth and wisdom of the holy scriptures in all of their profundity, and this divine and rational knowledge permeated all of his Epistles to the Church, becoming part of the very foundation of our Christian faith...Joanna asked, "What became of those Jews" who were so preoccupied with studying scripture?  The answer is quite clear.  [i]They founded and established the Church![/i]  All of the founders of our holy Church, the Apostles, were Jews, and some of the Seventy were even Pharisees, like St. Paul.

"What became of those Jews" who were so preoccupied with studying scripture? The answer is quite clear. They founded and established the Church! All of the founders of our holy Church, the Apostles, were Jews, and some of the Seventy were even Pharisees, like St. Paul.

The 12 Apostles weren't studying. They were fishing or collecting money. I was referring to those who studied with the Pharisees and Sadducces. The majority of them crucified Christ because they DIDN'T study the Scriptures with their hearts, in faith, but with their minds, in pride. They loved their position and all the privelages. They studied because of pride.

SAUL is the perfect example. He studied so much, yet knew ABSOLUTELY nothing until Christ touched his heart.

After that, he was taught, the Scriptures, in the right way, by the circle of 12 Apostles. And then, after that, he could understand the Scriptures correctly. And he could teach the jews how they understood the Holy Scriptures incorrectly. I really like the Book of Hebrews. He showed them how they misunderstood the holy prophets. Some believed, but most just ended up killing him.

Besides St. Paul, who else were Pharisees amongst the other Seventy?

But, I guess you are missing the point I made.

Joanna,

   St. Paul had an astonishing knowledge of the Torah and the scriptures, which, as you point out, was amply demonstrated in his many Epistles, including that to the Hebrews.  Your question deserves a little research into the hagiography of the Church, but, if I am not mistaken, a significant number of Pharisees went on to establish and lead the early Church.  The Proto-martyr St. Stephen was, I believe, a student of St. Paul's righteous teacher, a Pharisee, who is revered by the Church Fathers.  St. Nicodemus was also a Pharisee, if I am not mistaken.  I cannot agree with your statement that the Holy Apostles were mere workers who did not study the scriptures.  All Jews of that time grew up studying and discussing the Torah in their local and central Temples, and the two Epistles of St. Peter often reference the Hebrew scriptures, including the[i] Psalms.[/i]  "The ears of the Lord are open unto the righteous," etc...Of course, the fullness of the faith, and the depth and wisdom of the ancient scriptures, was only apparent to the Apostles after Pentecost.  Recall, however, that St. Paul specifically did [i]not[/i] consult with the Twelve for quite some time after his encounter with Christ God on the road to Damascus. St. Paul did not likely [i]learn [/i]the Hebrew scriptures from the Twelve...he already knew them by heart from his youth.

St. Paul had an astonishing knowledge of the Torah and the scriptures, which, as you point out, was amply demonstrated in his many Epistles, including that to the Hebrews.

There you go again...mixing messages. WHEN he spoke to the jews, AFTER his conversion, he had the SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE to teach CORRECTLY because he was speaking by the HOLY SPIRIT.

BUT, BEFORE THAT, HE WAS CONDEMNING CHRISTIANS TO DEATH, WASN'T HE? BECAUSE OF THE KNOWLEGE HE HAD BEFORE HIS CONVERSION...WHICH WAS WRONG.

The Proto-martyr St. Stephen was, I believe, a student of St. Paul's righteous teacher, a Pharisee, who is revered by the Church Fathers. St. Nicodemus was also a Pharisee, if I am not mistaken.

Like I said..most of them that "studied" the Holy Scriptures crucified Christ. Most means, not all of them. Of course there were conversions to the truth. You still missed the point I had made.

All Jews of that time grew up studying and discussing the Torah in their local and central Temples, and the two Epistles of St. Peter often reference the Hebrew scriptures, including the Psalms.

No. Not all jews. Many had to work and there was no luxury in studying. The holy fathers even explained that the Apostles who were fishermen were UNEDUCATED. Hence, the reason why it was so amazing that they had such great understanding of the Holy Scriptures, AFTER PENTECOST.

St. Peter gained that spiritual wisdom, AFTER PENTECOST.

St. Paul did not likely learn the Hebrew scriptures from the Twelve...he already knew them by heart from his youth.

Again, you don't read what I write. I said that St. Paul was taught how to read the Holy Scriptures CORRECTLY, with the Apostles. Sure, he studied the writings before, but he didn't know the Scriptures, in truth...otherwise, he wouldn't have been condemning Christians to death, right? So, it is obvious, that with all his learnings, along with all those men who believed that the learning of Holy Scripture was a great position, they became the betrayers of the God that they said they worshipped...because, in essence, they were worshipping themselves.

And don't think I'm stupid. I will bring this thread BACK to the arguement at hand, which is...stop trying to elevate yourself by contemplating the higher mysteries which is only resevered for God.

The angels don't even know who the anti-christ is. And you started this thread stating that you believe this person, Obama is the anti-christ. And you make arguements about all the points that make it look like he is. Nobody will know who the anti-christ will be, until it is revealed, TO ALL OF US.

[/quote]

"So, it is obvious, that with all his learnings, along with all those men who believed that the learning of Holy Scripture was a great position, they became the betrayers of the God that they said they worshipped...because, in essence, they were worshipping themselves. "

Joanna,

  I must confess that it is exceedingly difficult to discuss anything in a clear, rational manner with a person who is both entirely convinced by her own inchoate opinions, and equally incapable of truly grasping what another is saying.  In such a predicament, one will likely always be accused of either "arrogance" or foolishness, if only through misunderstanding. But, to get back to the original post; I take it that you would decidedly answer my original question, "Is Barak Obama the Antichrist?" with either a "definitely [i]not[/i]," or a "don't ask such questions you Pharisaical, impious twit?"  I was rather hoping for a more informed response.

  Secondly, throughout the history of the Church there have been those who, like the heretics Marcion and Valentinus, tried to convince people that Christianity was something non-Jewish, or even anti-Semitic--and that the "Jews" were something entirely [i]other[/i] than Christians.  Hitler, for example, was very fond of a Nazi "theologian" who actually convinced a number of people that Christ God was really a non-Jewish Aryan...This line of thinking, since the time of Marcion, tried to deny the historical reality that all of the first Christians were, in fact, devout, righteous Jews, who, like the Lord, grew up studying, chanting, and discussing the sacred scriptures of Israel.  Of course, "not one tittle" of the Torah was abrogated by Christ God, who reserved the "best wine" for the end of the wedding feast at Cana.  What should we say, then, of the "old wine;"  [i]that this good gift of God to righteous Jews was "bad[/i], and not to be studied"?  If such were the case, why was Moses transfigured on Mt. Sinai, where his face radiated light?  And why do we now read and chant these ancient "Jewish" scriptures daily in the Orthodox Church?

Since this is the second time this has been stated:

I said that St. Paul was taught how to read the Holy Scriptures CORRECTLY, with the Apostles.

Here is the scriptural account:

To the Galations St. Paul wrote:

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. And they glorified God in me. Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [me] also. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed [to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.