The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

Pravo,

I must confess that it is exceedingly difficult to discuss anything in a clear, rational manner with a person who is both entirely convinced by her own inchoate opinions, and equally incapable of truly grasping what another is saying.

And perhaps YOU are not grasping what I am saying. Or are you of such intelligence that this conversation moves only one way? Did it ever occur to you that I could be saying something that YOU don't grasp? Me thinkst not.

You quote me on the previous sentence but not the following: Sure, he studied the writings before, but he didn't know the Scriptures, in truth...otherwise, he wouldn't have been condemning Christians to death, right?

And: stop trying to elevate yourself by contemplating the higher mysteries which is only resevered for God.

You want to make a definite statement that Obama is THE anti-christ. The holy fathers didn't produce a name, so who are you; do you have such a great connection with God that you are so sure about this? Then you are greater than the holy fathers.....

This is what comes from obsessing with getting knowledge about the anti-christ. You put yourself above the holy fathers and equal to God, the Father, for knowing who the anti-christ is.

You choose to respond to specific sentences that add fuel to your convictions. You maneuver by picking the sentence to fit your arguement. The point is that we have different views. So leave it at that. But, no, you to have add insult to your commentary. All I said was that I thought you were missing the point I made.

In such a predicament, one will likely always be accused of either "arrogance" or foolishness, if only through misunderstanding.

In such a predicament, one will be told to let go of these arrogant and foolish pursuits to know who the anti-christ is and WORK ON THEIR SALVATION. Pray, fast, go to church, give alms, share the truth of God to others. THESE are the fruits. If you get sucked into contemplation of who the anti-christ is or even a general study of the anti-christ, then you will get sucked into satan's trap. Because you will be spending all your time in false studies instead of holy spiritual contemplation.

But, to get back to the original post; I take it that you would decidedly answer my original question, "Is Barak Obama the Antichrist?" with either a "definitely not," or a "don't ask such questions you Pharisaical, impious twit?" I was rather hoping for a more informed response.

No. My answer, which you did not care to understand is that we are not in a position to contemplate WHO the anti-christ is because even the holy fathers don't know.

MY point is...get over it and contemplate your salvation. Because you should be concerned, with all your heart, about where YOU will end up. Meaning(so there is no misunderstanding), that I see that worrying about our salvation should be the only concern in our lives. THAT is my answer.

Secondly, throughout the history of the Church there have been those who, like the heretics Marcion and Valentinus, tried to convince people that Christianity was something non-Jewish, or even anti-Semitic--and that the "Jews" were something entirely other than Christians. Hitler, for example, was very fond of a Nazi "theologian" who actually convinced a number of people that Christ God was really a non-Jewish Aryan...This line of thinking, since the time of Marcion, tried to deny the historical reality that all of the first Christians were, in fact, devout, righteous Jews, who, like the Lord, grew up studying, chanting, and discussing the sacred scriptures of Israel. Of course, "not one tittle" of the Torah was abrogated by Christ God, who reserved the "best wine" for the end of the wedding feast at Cana. What should we say, then, of the "old wine;" that this good gift of God to righteous Jews was "bad, and not to be studied"? If such were the case, why was Moses transfigured on Mt. Sinai, where his face radiated light? And why do we now read and chant these ancient "Jewish" scriptures daily in the Orthodox Church?

You see. This statement is incoherent to me. You throw out all these muddled thoughts.

Your post is about whether Obama is the anti-christ. And my initial response is, don't waste your spiritual efforts on trying to figure out who the anti-christ is. Concentrate on your salvation.

But, I guess I didn't express myself clearly. And that's why I said that you missed my point.

In Christ,

Joanna

You know, I thought there may have been some truth to all this, but then I found a picture that blew our previous theory completely out of the water.

Sean,

 It now appears that we will be forced to vote for either McCain or Obama in November.  As usual in secular politics, it comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils...What amazes me, several weeks after this thread began, is the persistent refusal of highly educated American journalists to investigate and discuss Barak Obama's Moslem upbringing.  I read a newspaper article the other day that reported that [i]1 in 10 Americans, incredibly, still believe that Barak Obama is a Moslem[/i], and that these 10% are mostly "uneducated," Christian "Fundamentalists."  Our highly educated, non-Christian journalists have, apparently, not even bothered to examine the available data from Indonesia about the real Barry Soetelo and his childhood days in Mengaji classes...Mind you, I am not saying that Obama is now a Moslem, but I certainly wonder about his private theological views.

Orthodox Christians are not "forced" to vote for either candidate. There is no obligation for Orthodox Christians to vote for candidates such as these, who work evil.

True Orthodox Christians should not defile their conscience by voting for either of these despicable candidates.

There is always the possibility of choosing a write-in a candidate, if you absolutely feel compelled to vote for someone.

Cyprian,

     I agree entirely, and have at times feared to commit a sin by voting for any of the available secular candidates in an election.  Is it a sin of ommission (rather than of commission) to not vote, to not choose a lesser evil?  Surely there examples from the scriptures and lives of the saints in this regard.  Christ God taught exlicitly that it wqas more appropriate to pay Caesar's tax than to not pay the tax: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..."  Any thoughts?

There has been some recent (2010) blogging by Ian and others at the St. Euphrosynos Cafe on the subject of the end times and U.S. President Barak Obama. So I recently revisited this old thread from early 2008 on the subject of Barak Obama and the Antichrist. Of course, at the time none of us knew that Obama would defy the odds and go on to win the Democratic nomination and the U.S. Presidency, much less the Nobel Peace Prize, etc. Some even opined that Obama lacked the charisma and/or Judaic DNA to become a world leader like the prophesied Antichrist.

 The original discussion was quite active-- even heated at times-- and ran from January through April of 2008, with more than 50 commentaries and almost 6,000 views.  

  I still ponder the original question, but do not presume to know the answer.

I looked back at your original post, where you mention St John Maximovich's alleged prophecy that the Antichrist had been born. However, all the sources I've seen that mention this supposed event give a specific year when it occurred, i.e. 1962. Obama was born in 1961, so if St John really did make this prediction and he was right, Obama cannot be the Antichrist.

Vladimir Moss in his discussion of the Book of Revelation mentions the other fact you mention, that the Antichrist will be of the tribe of Dan, and I find it hard to see how Obama's ancestry fits this description. Moreover, prophesies by catacomb saints in Russia predict that the Antichrist will be born in Russia, which again excludes Obama. Now, I don't know how much authority to give these prophecies, but so far I have not seen any prophecies that fit Obama's description. The only one which fits is the 'great humanitarian', and Obama does indeed reflect this description, at least in his rhetoric. However, all sources suggest the Antichrist will be politically extremely successful, obviously since he is to rule the whole world. So far, Obama has been successful only in a few areas and is losing popularity.

I am also not aware of any prophecies that identify the Antichrist with any Moslem figure, whether the 12th Imam or anything else. If anything, the Antichrist is identified with Judaism, and also with some form of heretical Christianity. Currently, the prime candidates seem to be Messianic or Zionist Judaism, and Ecumenism. At the moment, the two religions are not compatible on the surface: the World Council of Churches is not known for its Zionist sympathies, and Zionist Judaism remains a nationalistic, not a syncretistic sect. If these two currents do eventually flow together, it is not yet apparent to me how this will come about.

Moss recently wrote a rather insightful article about nationalism and universalism and their relation to each other and to Orthodoxy. I highly recommend it, especially for the connection he draws between the two ideologies, which on the surface seem opposed to each other.