On the question of the calendar

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Sat 3 July 2004 10:05 pm

Tom, I think one of these days you will cause a real riot here....and I do believe you will enjoy it.

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Sat 3 July 2004 10:09 pm

Natasha wrote:
Tom, I think one of these days you will cause a real riot here....and I do believe you will enjoy it.

But I am not kidding about this. I have consistently said on this site and on OC.Net that I do not like Orthodoxy being on the New Calendar.

Aristokles · Post by **Aristokles** » Sat 3 July 2004 10:51 pm

TomS wrote:
I don't think the new calendar is acceptable at all. I would love to see all the Orthodox go back on the old calendar.

As you know, I always support Tradition.

You never do fail to entertain, my friend, TomΣ.
But the original question above is still a good one. I can't speak for other New Calendarist jurisdictions, but in my experience being in the GOAA (with a spouse from ACROD and a Julian Calendar parish), I have a feeling that most Greeks in this country (USA), being as traditionally insular as we have been, are truly unaware that a calendar issue exists. I know that sounds unreal, but most all of them are not internet savvy -and the internet is where most of the debate rages, do not visit parishes of other jurisdictions to even notice a difference, and do not even remember when they were on the Julian Calendar.
As to Νεκταριος's "official EP" statement, not even all 6 of the Greek churches made the change permanently, much less the majority of Orthodox worldwide. Of course, I do wish (pray) for an enlightened Ecumenical Patriarch who admits the experiment has not been worth the costs and goes back to the Old Calendar. It would be helpful as well if the competing Old Calendarist churches in Greece would stop fighting and act as one; that would have a positive affect, IMHO. Lacking that, they seem to be painted as fringe groups, which is sad.
Telling also is the fact that the EP in the US does have Old Calendar dioceses if I am not mistaken- the Ukrainians, much of ACROD- so the issue can't be that big for the EP.
I guess this is just a longish post detailing why we New Clalendarists probably don't think the Revised "Gregorian" thing is OK. (Why call it Revised Julian anyway?)

Demetri

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Sat 3 July 2004 10:58 pm

Aristokles wrote:
.. I have a feeling that most Greeks in this country (USA), being as traditionally insular as we have been, are truly unaware that a calendar issue exists.

I have found the same thing in the GOA. Not one of the parishoners in my church that I have spoken with could care at all about the Calendar issue. The view it simply as a secular issue where the church hade to "get with the times".

Aristokles · Post by **Aristokles** » Sat 3 July 2004 11:21 pm

TomS wrote:
Aristokles wrote:
.. I have a feeling that most Greeks in this country (USA), being as traditionally insular as we have been, are truly unaware that a calendar issue exists.

I have found the same thing in the GOA. Not one of the parishoners in my church that I have spoken with could care at all about the Calendar issue. The view it simply as a secular issue where the church hade to "get with the times".

Well, at least they are aware it's a problem of albeit debateable magnitude as far as they've been told.

Demetri

Lucian · Post by **Lucian** » Sun 4 July 2004 12:15 am

I agree that going to the New Calendar was ill-advised.

Anything that is likely (in this case, certain) to offend or cause a needless schism should be avoided.

Nektarios14 · Post by **Nektarios14** » Sun 4 July 2004 2:41 am

The old calendarists are fanatics

Some are definetly fanatics to the point of seal without knowledge, but not all are fanatical. ROCOR, JP and the TOCs in particular have presented a good witness of moderate traditionalism.

Does anybody know that when the calendar was changed by one of the popes, that there was a revolt by the parishners? Many innocent parishners were killed by the popes's army because they disagreed with him.

There is a lot of information on this in the book published by the CTOS about science and the old calendar....also very intersting about Poland and ther are some similarites between that and the amount of force used to implement the New Calendar in Greece.

As to Νεκταριος's "official EP" statement, not even all 6 of the Greek churches made the change permanently, much less the majority of Orthodox worldwide. Of course, I do wish (pray) for an enlightened Ecumenical Patriarch who admits the experiment has not been worth the costs and goes back to the Old Calendar.

The reason for pointing out the EP in particular was because Meletios was the EP when the change was imposed, and even to this day the EP acts as enforcer towards the athonites (and not just Esphigmenou and Saint Elias skete) anytime they make a statement critical of ecumenism. But I think there is still much room for optimism considering the Patriachate of Jerusalem seems very committed to safeguarding tradition. I think there has been a general trend against ecumenism in other churches as well, such as Georgia withdrawing from talks with monophysites. Also the MANY saintly Elders of Greece in recent times will cause more and more lay people to oppose the new calendar and ecumenism. The big "wild card" will be to see the role of the MP in coming years.

It would be helpful as well if the competing Old Calendarist churches in Greece would stop fighting and act as one; that would have a positive affect, IMHO. Lacking that, they seem to be painted as fringe groups, which is sad.

Agreed - but that is the ugly side of the traditional movement, many are not resisting with the hope of soemday re-uniting with their erring brethren. That is why I like Metr. Cyprian's synod, as far as I know they are the only group that does not claim to replace the state Church of Greece. And then there is Saint Nikolaos Planas who never stopped celebrating on the old calendar nor would he break communion with the Archbishop of Athens.