On Headcoverings and Modesty of Women in Church

[TomS]

You never know, maybe we will have been raptured by then!

[Gregory2]

This is a topic I have discussed with Orthodox women. I honestly don't know the answer. But I have realized in discussing the "headcovering issue," that the problem was chiefly with me -- I desperately wanted women to wear headcoverings because I desperately wanted to consider myself more important than them (I am a man).

I honestly don't care if a woman wears a headcovering or not -- if it makes her feel more spiritual, then go to town. I think it's awfully rude for the rest of us to critique and criticize women who don't wear them -- who the heck are we to judge?

As someone astutely pointed out above, we should be concentrating foremost on OURSELVES when worshipping at Liturgy -- on correcting our own sinfulness -- instead of pointing out the alleged "sins" of others.

I think many Orthodox women don't wear headcoverings to prove a point to judgmental, curmudgeonly Orthodox men.

Thank you, Jesus, for my sufferings!

[尼古拉前执事]

Some more links on this:

The Ascetic Podvig of Living in the World - Archbishop Laurus

• http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/podvig.htm

Why Women & Girls Cover their Heads in Church

• http://www.roca.org/OA/111/111d.htm

• http://www.roca.org/OA/83/83g.htm

• http://www.stjohndc.org/What/9110a.htm

These links are courtesy' of Bethany's Orthodox Young Adults site.

[Julianna]

I think many Orthodox women don't wear headcoverings to prove a point to judgmental, curmudgeonly Orthodox men.

That's sad. Someone's not following the laws of the Church from the times of the Apostles just to spite men in foolish gender pride? Men and women've different roles and people need to accept that.

I'm just wondering thugh If pants're unacceptable at church (which separates us from society) why're they acceptable to wear at work? Don't we pray at work or when we'll go out to dinner?

[Seraphim Reeves]

I think two separate (though admittedly, related) subjects are being confounded here - the issue of feminine modesty, and the Biblical prohibition against women dressing in masculine garments (and vice versa.)

On the first issue, I'd say it's entirely possible for a woman to cover herself sufficiently with a pair of pants. It's also entirely possible for a woman to be immodest in a dress or skirt (depending on the cut and how tight it is, or if the fabric is too sheer.)

On the second issue, I think it's a subject that has to be viewed on a sociological level...in particular, why women's fashions began to become more "masculine" in the first place. In large part, this had to do with the events surrounding the Second World War. Large numbers of men were conscripted (or volunteered as was often the case...I know in Canada, we didn't have conscription during the war, yet most of the able bodied men volunteered anyway, like my grandfather), leaving only the women behind to keep industry going. It was in the factories that women started wearing men's work clothes for practical reasons.

I think it was this experience which began to "normalize" the sight of a woman in what was at that time, obviously masculine clothing. However, the sight of women normally wearing trousers in social settings was a result of cultural upheavals which followed the war, including some which Christians cannot but take exception to (the rise of "feminism", rampant egalitarianism unto absurdity in some cases, etc.).

Now we're at a point where the sight of a woman in pants is "normal", and no longer associated with an attempt to "masculinize" women. However, it was a mixture of unfortunate circumstances (the war) and more sinisterly, cultural upheaval (and in a negative way) which planted the seed of this fashion change.

It is in this light that I see the matter - a kind of middle ground I suppose. To me, the normalizing of "pants" on women is more a symptom of a big problem than a huge problem itself. That our culture increasingly does not recognize different manners of dress between men and women is a symptom of our culture's rejection of men and women having basically different roles to play in the human family...and that is definatly a problem.

While this whole process began with the masculinizing of female fashions, it's now cutting in the opposite direction - the increasing "feminization" of male fashion sense (with men indulging in everything from waxing their body hair off, spending as much time as women "prettying themselves up" in a manner that our fathers would have found a little "queer", and even such fringe/strange things as some companies even selling "male make up".) It should also be noted, that this increasing convergence between male and female fashion sense (which as I'll stress, is only a symptom) is also going hand in hand with not simply increasing public tolerance for, but even outright promotion/glorification of homosexuality (both male and female varieties.)

It is with all of this in mind, that I think it is edifying to see women who are not only modest, but who whenever possible do not wear trousers. It is not so much because they'll look like tramps if they wear slacks, but because I think it's a clear statement about their femininity, something which definatly is lacking in our society (since as most of us here already know, "feminism" is about the masculinization of women, not fostering their feminine qualities.) The same, I predict, will also be increasingly true of those men who refuse to participate in the new fey "fashion sense" taking over popular men's fashions.

Seraphim

P.S. - even the whole "World War II" aspect of this is a tragic seed, since the only reason women were forced away from their traditional roles was because of the advent of the ungodly practice of "total warfare", which began during the period following the French Revolution, where conscription of entire populations of men became the norm, over the use of standing armies...and of course, if one side does this, then everyone has to do this (or become incredibly outnumbered)...the same goes for the deterioration of chivalry, and the whole idea that there are "rules" regarding warfare, and even a certain ediquette.

[Natasha]

http://www2.netdoor.com/~frelia/cover.html

Why Christian Women Absolutely Must Cover Their Heads

"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head, for that is all one as if she were shorn. For if the woman be not
covered, let her be shorn:" the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians (I Cor.11:5)

For 20 centuries Christians have always and everywhere preserved the tradition delivered to us by the Holy Apostle Paul in the Sacred Scriptures. and Christians
have always believed the Scriptures to be inspired by God, the Revelation of God's Will for us. For more than 3,OOO years, in the Old Testament, in the New
Testament, in our grandmother's time, only prostitutes went about with their heads uncovered. Today, shamelessness has become normal, just as fornication and
divorce have become "normal".

Only the Orthodox Church observes everything in the New Testament, because the New Testament was composed by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is
the New Testament Church, unchanged. For women to cover their heads means they believe in the Bible. For women to pray with heads uncovered means they don't
care what the Bible says, and they don't believe it is Divinely Inspired, and this is the essential question: Is the Bible Divinely Inspired?

Those who composed the Bible, those Greek speaking bishops in the early centuries, set these certain books in the Bible because the entire Christian world believed
these books to be divinely inspired. There developed a universal consensus in the Body of Christ recognizing the Holy Spirit in these books, in a special way,
working in the human authors, and the consensus of the Universal Church from Ireland to India, form Russia to Ethiopia was that these Scriptures were Divine.

From the beginning, the consensus in the Body of Christ was that these Scriptures were the Gospel Truth, and must be wholly true, though parts of the Old
Testament were obviously allegory, for Mysteries the Human mind could not comprehend. The Church of the Apostles observed every instruction of the New
Testament, not on the authority of any one person, but the entire Body of Christ. And this was universally accepted for 16 centuries, before men, filled with The
Spirit Of Pride, began to try to unravel the Whole Teaching of the Bible.

In fact, we must say that early reformers hated the Bible, because it contradicted their new heresies. For example, Luther hated the Epistle of James and wanted it
removed from the Bible. Calvin abolished the anointing of the sick (Jas: 5:14) and denied that the Church had the power to forgive sins, and the clear teaching of
the Gospel on Marriage and Divorce.

Why must women absolutely cover their heads to pray? Because the Bible absolutely says so. To deny one is to deny the other. Actions speak louder than words.

the Burning Bush Hermitage

Home Hermitage Incense Articles

[Logos]

Men are the greatest feminists at times.