Cyprian Was Wrong on Rebaptism

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


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Evfimy

Post by Evfimy »

Didn't I already give the references showing Trullo was rejected by the west?

The more I study, the more I become convinced that the Orthodox are wrong. The apostolic see of Rome has a divine primacy over all the other churches. This fact is conceded by bishops and fathers of the pre-schism churches of the east and west. It is highly unlikely that God would allow this see to apostatize. I can understand Antioch or Jerusalem, but not Rome. Rome had the primacy.

Suaiden calls the formula of Hormisdas a "sorry affiair". Really? This was signed over 500 years before the schism by around 2500 eastern clergy, including the emperor Justinian himself. Who are you to say what is sorry or not?

I wanted to italisize or highlite your quote in my quote, but I couldn't get that feature to work.

Last edited by Evfimy on Sun 23 March 2008 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Suaidan
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Post by Suaidan »

Evfimy wrote:

Suaiden calls the formula of Hormisdas a "sorry affiair". Really? This was signed over 500 years before the schism by around 2500 eastern clergy, including the emperor Justian himself. Who are you to say what is sorry or not?

I wanted to italisize or highlite your quote in my quote, but I couldn't get that feature to work.

Try using the little buttons on top.

And try answering what I said about the dispute on the formula, rather than dismissing it. That is typical for a Papist when it comes to the Fathers-- just like it's typical for a Protestant when it comes to the Bible.

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Jean-Serge
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Post by Jean-Serge »

Evfimy wrote:

Didn't I already give the references showing Trullo was rejected by the west?

Where? I could not find this :? But to be sure of this, we should look for the letter from pope Adrian I in his letter to Tarasius where he says "I accept the decisions made by the same holy Sixth Council, together with all the Canons it has duly and divinely uttered, wherein they are expressed." It is not impossible that the heretic popes rejected Trullo because it condemned their innovations.

To tell you the truth, I am not convinced at all by your explanation about the Honorius case. He was athematised by a council and a pope confirmed this, which shows the council did not believe that the see of Rome could not fall in heresy, and so did the pope.

Other point : during the Filioque affair, a pope had the Creed written without the filioque to assert his adhesion to the original creed. So the pope wa against filioque. After that, since Rome fell in heresy, the popes confirmed the filoque... One of them was then theologically wrong, which proves there is no infallibility...

The same with inmaculate conception : many popes said only Jesus and not his mother was born without sin.. And now, they say the Mother of God was too... These theological contradictions clearly shows that the see of Rome is not preserved from falling.

I could speak about the catholic cult of the Holy Heart of Jesus which against the.... Indeed, the cult is a in reality worship of the Heart of Christ later transformed in a worship of his love. But Jesus-Christ has to be worshiped in his totality (True man and true God). This is in contradiction with canon 9 of the 5th ecumenical council, which was endorsed by the pope then. The following extract is by Father Michael Pomazansky in his dogmatic.

The one worship of Christ.

To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-man it is fitting to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to Humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the Man… and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Eerdmans, Seven Ecumenical Councils, p. 314).

On the Latin cult of the "Heart of Jesus."

In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "sacred heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the Humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour’s love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another — for example, a mother to a child — he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole.

The pope also contradicts himself with the Filioque because he previously accepted the anathema against those who would change the Creed. So by changing the Creed, the popes depose themselves.

Third ecumenical council

  1. These things having been read aloud, the holy Council then decreed that no one should be permitted to offer any different belief or faith, or in any case to write or compose any other, than the one defined by the Holy Fathers who convened in the city of Nicaea, with Holy Spirit. As for those who dare either to compose a different belief or faith, or to present one, or to offer one to those who wish to return to recognition of the truth, whether they be Greeks or Jews, or they be members of any heresy whatever, they, if Bishops or Clergymen, shall be deprived as Bishops of their Episcopate, and as Clergymen of their Clericate; but if they are Laymen, they shall be anathematized.

Well the history of papacy is full of such example : the heretic popes accepting which was condemned by previous popes... This clealy shows there is no infallibility there... The facts are clear : papcy fell into heresy...

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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Jean-Serge
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Post by Jean-Serge »

Let us go back to the question of baptizing heretics.

The second ecumenical council accepted by the West and the Pope says :

7. As for those heretics who betake themselves to Orthodoxy, and to the lot of the saved, we accept them in accordance with the subjoined sequence and custom; viz.: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, those calling themselves Cathari (or "Puritans"), and (those calling themselves) Aristeri (Note of Translator. — This designation may be based upon the Greek word aristos, meaning "best," though as a word it signifies "lefthand."), and the Quartodecimans (quasi "Fourteenthists," to use the English language in this connection), otherwise known as Tetradites (though in English this term is applied to an entirely different group of heretics), and Apollinarians we accept when they offer libelli (i.e., recantations in writing) and anathematize every heresy that does not hold the same beliefs as the catholic and apostolic Church of God, and are sealed first with holy myron (more usually called "chrism" in English) on their forehead and their eyes, and nose, and mouth, and ears; and in sealing them we say: "A seal of a free gift of Holy Spirit."

As for Eunomians, however, who are baptized with a single immersion, and Montanists, who are here called Phrygians, and the Sabellians, who teach that Father and Son are the same person, and who do some other bad things, and (those belonging to) any other heresies (for there are many heretics here, especially such as come from the country of the Galatians: all of them that want to adhere to Orthodoxy we are willing to accept as Greeks. Accordingly, on the first day we make (Note of Translator. — The meaning of this word here is more exactly rendered "treat as") them Christians; on the second day, catechumens; then, on the third day, we exorcize them with the act of blowing thrice into their face and into their ears; and thus do we catechize them, and we make them tarry a while in the church and listen to the Scriptures; and then we baptize them.

Many heretics are baptised and when they are not baptised, the council does not say that it is because of the validity of their baptism but simply that it is a custom... Montanists, Sabellians and so on were in their heretic church baptized in the name of Christ too, but received through baptism. Actually, it is the question of economy and acriby that has nothing to do with the validity of heretical baptism....

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

Evfimy

Post by Evfimy »

suaiden wrote:

Try using the little buttons on top.

I did and they wouldn't work right.

suaiden wrote:

And try answering what I said about the dispute on the formula, rather than dismissing it. That is typical for a Papist when it comes to the Fathers-- just like it's typical for a Protestant when it comes to the Bible.

There is no evidence the 2500 eastern clergy ever disputed it. Whoever disputed it eventually came around.

There is a lot on the table since I last came here last. I'll have to respond tomorrow.

Evfimy

Post by Evfimy »

I don't think anyone answered my question if they agreed with the quotes I gave from Saint Theodore.

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Cyprian
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Post by Cyprian »

St. John Chrysostom:

This Linus, some say, was second Bishop of the Church of Rome after Peter.

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