How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

HieromonkIrineos wrote:

NCY,

Having come from the OCA myself, I am certain all this sounds like a non-issue to you. But it is not a non-issue. You say a few bishops. How do you know this? Can you state the position of each? These are things that time and dialogue will sort out. The

If you want to demand perfect canonical order of a group that has been persecuted for almost 100 years now, I reject that as being a reasonable expectation. You didn't see it in Russia under communism. You don't even see it among your world orthodox here in North America where there has been no persecution. Though I find the division among Old Calendar jurisdictions sad, I do pray for and respect all the bishops within and without my particular synod, for persevering in the struggle to maintain the faith. God will order His Church in His time.

And the GOC-A did not leave the GOC-K over the union with the Synod in Resistance. I don't know where you got that idea, but it is incorrect.

I only say a few bishops because that was what I was told here on this forum: That some of the former Synod in Resistance bishops who joined GOC-K were still espousing "Cyprianite" beliefs, at least on their website(s), and that some of you were unwilling to be a part of GOC-K as a result. I simply don't understand why you see what some of the GOC-K bishops are saying as being unorthodox because it seems to me to be in line with what ROCOR (used) to say. If you could help me understand why you guys see it as unorthodox, that'd be rather helpful. In other words, I'm not trying to argue that it is Orthodox at this point, but rather that I don't understand why you don't view it as Orthodox. Does that clarify what I'm saying at all? Sorry, I try to do better at phrasing things online.

No, I don't think it is reasonable to demand perfect to demand perfect canonical order among the Old Calendar jurisdictions ("World Orthodoxy" doesn't have perfect canonical order either if we're being honest, so that would be hypocritical). I'm trying to find where within Old Calendarism there's a balance between the "correctness disease" (as Fr. Seraphim Rose put it) and the "royal way" of resistance with sobriety (or holding to the spirit of true Orthodoxy, rather than the mere externals, if that makes any sense), or if there even is such an understanding in Old Calendarism anymore. Forgive me, as you said, I am very much on the outside looking in here.

Lastly, I apologize for not being more clear. I meant people personally leaving GOC-K for GOC-A over this issue. I was not meaning that GOC-A split from GOC-K as a group, though I had asked if that was case earlier. Thankfully, you just answered that question. :)

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Barbara
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Re: How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

Post by Barbara »

I didn't know that St John had arranged for Eugene Rose to be CHRISMATED !

Maybe that is why this was never explained well in the Platina biography as I recall. I would have to check it again, though.
I always assumed that this Eugene was baptized !

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NotChrysostomYet
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Re: How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Barbara wrote:

I didn't know that St John had arranged for Eugene Rose to be CHRISMATED !

Maybe that is why this was never explained well in the Platina biography as I recall. I would have to check it again, though.
I always assumed that this Eugene was baptized !

It's on pages 199 - 200 of Fr. Seraphim Rose by Hieromonk Damascene.

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Re: How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

Post by NotChrysostomYet »

Sorry, but I'm re-starting this thread: can someone give me a citation for GOC-K currently espousing Cyprianism? I can't find one.

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Maria
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Re: How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

Post by Maria »

NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Sorry, but I'm re-starting this thread: can someone give me a citation for GOC-K currently espousing Cyprianism? I can't find one.

Read the sermons of GOC-K Bishop Auxentios of Etna and Portland.
He was rebuked by Vladimir Moss for continuing to espouse Cyprianism.

By the way, Bishop Auxentios is also very proud to have been a Rhodes Scholar.
The liberalism found in Cyprianism is similar to the liberalism and modernism taught to Rhodes Scholars.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

Post by Isaakos »

Maria wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Sorry, but I'm re-starting this thread: can someone give me a citation for GOC-K currently espousing Cyprianism? I can't find one.

Read the sermons of GOC-K Bishop Auxentios of Etna and Portland.
He was rebuked by Vladimir Moss for continuing to espouse Cyprianism.

By the way, Bishop Auxentios is also very proud to have been a Rhodes Scholar.
The liberalism found in Cyprianism is similar to the liberalism and modernism taught to Rhodes Scholars.

I think it’s an open question in terms of variety of opinion. For example, the catacomb Church in Russia had bishops with widely different views on Metropolitan Sergius- Bishop Victor for example repudiated all his mysteries and considered him a flat out schismatic.

Bishop Cyril of Kazan thought he had valid mysteries but that it was sinful to receive them, knowing Sergius’ actions were uncanonical.

Both bishops were in communion with one another. Why? Because they shared a common conviction- Sergius is wrong and we must sever communion with him. The implications can only be known to God until a council is convened to officially rule on their status.

So the question is, today, why is this perspective not enough? Why is it not enough for us to be united by an Orthodox confession of faith, a common condemnation of heresy, and a common resolve to share no communion with those we recognize as heretics?

St. Photios the great died in communion with Rome, knowing the Romans were in communion with the Franks who had added the filioque to the creed. Why? Because Pope John VIII had spoken of rooting it out gradually, and Photios accepted that.

So the question becomes- why are so many today suddenly wiser than their fathers? They don’t show this “wisdom” in their internal dealings with one another, they don’t manifest charity, and they bicker and splinter into pieces. So how is it possible to trust TO/GOC groups that behave in this way when they clearly don’t even have the tolerance of St. Photios?

Who are we to demand a greater homogeneity of opinion today than the saints themselves tolerated graciously?

Temptation from the right.

“What exactly are you here for?”

“…To see with eyes unclouded by hate.”

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Maria
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Re: How are bishops in the ROCOR and in the GOC-K espousing ecumenism?

Post by Maria »

Isaakos wrote:
Maria wrote:
NotChrysostomYet wrote:

Sorry, but I'm re-starting this thread: can someone give me a citation for GOC-K currently espousing Cyprianism? I can't find one.

Read the sermons of GOC-K Bishop Auxentios of Etna and Portland.
He was rebuked by Vladimir Moss for continuing to espouse Cyprianism.

By the way, Bishop Auxentios is also very proud to have been a Rhodes Scholar.
The liberalism found in Cyprianism is similar to the liberalism and modernism taught to Rhodes Scholars.

I think it’s an open question in terms of variety of opinion. For example, the catacomb Church in Russia had bishops with widely different views on Metropolitan Sergius- Bishop Victor for example repudiated all his mysteries and considered him a flat out schismatic.

Bishop Cyril of Kazan thought he had valid mysteries but that it was sinful to receive them, knowing Sergius’ actions were uncanonical.

Both bishops were in communion with one another. Why? Because they shared a common conviction- Sergius is wrong and we must sever communion with him. The implications can only be known to God until a council is convened to officially rule on their status.

So the question is, today, why is this perspective not enough? Why is it not enough for us to be united by an Orthodox confession of faith, a common condemnation of heresy, and a common resolve to share no communion with those we recognize as heretics?

St. Photios the great died in communion with Rome, knowing the Romans were in communion with the Franks who had added the filioque to the creed. Why? Because Pope John VIII had spoken of rooting it out gradually, and Photios accepted that.

So the question becomes- why are so many today suddenly wiser than their fathers? They don’t show this “wisdom” in their internal dealings with one another, they don’t manifest charity, and they bicker and splinter into pieces. So how is it possible to trust TO/GOC groups that behave in this way when they clearly don’t even have the tolerance of St. Photios?

Who are we to demand a greater homogeneity of opinion today than the saints themselves tolerated graciously?

Temptation from the right.

No, it is not temptation from the right. You are falling into the dangerous rhetoric of Bishop Auxentios of Etna and Portland, the Rhodes Scholar who continues to use this divisive language, which is continuing to destroy the Traditional Old Calendarist.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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