ROCOR-L UNANIMOUSLY VOTES TO UNITE WITH MP!

[joasia]

strastnaya,

Who ever you may be..here is my answer to your questions:

So if the EP is "out there" in his practice of Orthodoxy how does the Church bring him back?

The Orthodox faith and dogma must be a part of the person who lives it. The Canons were established for a reason. Patriarch Bartholomew has decided to forego these Canons. He has chosen to join with the apostates, the papists. This is not the Orthodox structure.

How is he brought back...by repentence of his will. Our faith in Christ is crucial to our salvation. We cannot make the rules, understand? Ponimyoush?

If he is not a condemned heretic or schismatic but still within the Church, albeit with a multitude of problems, from whom does he hear of the need for repentance on these issues?

From Christ.

There has been a long history of Patriarchs who fought against the Orthodox Church. Maybe somebody here can bring up a few examples.

His actions against his own clergy are a means of concern. How can anybody ignore his actions against the monks of Esphimenou? It's just not decent.

Obviously, the ROCOR re-entering communion with the other patriarchates will hopefully provide some assistance in this regard.

Going into communion with ecumenists is not a good thing. What is Orthodoxy? Ask yourself that. What did the Orthodox saints die for? Would St. Seraphim of Sarov approve of this? Would St. John of Krondstadt or St. John of San Franscico? What did they preach? Or Bishop Averky? They wrote things to warn us about these circumstances. Why do you ignore that?

There is only one Church and it is in communion.

There IS one CHURCH...but where is IT? We are all involved in a confused situation...our hearts will lead us to where the Holy Spirit lives...if we have the true faith.

So if you believe the EP isn't Orthodox than neither will the ROCOR be soon and then why did you ask the question?

I don't know which part of my comment you are referring to. But, as far as the EP stand...I believe that they have chosen to disregard the Orthodox dogmas and are betrayers to Christ with their ecumenical insistence. Basically,this means that they don't want to uphold the Orthodox traditions of faith and dogma, but want to alter it with respect to worldly concerns. Basically, they can't stand the Orthodox faith and make excuses to discredit it. How can you discredit Christ and the Holy Apostles? How can you discredit 2000 years of tradition, that are witnessed by the Orthodox saints?

strasnaya, if you care to be faithful to Orthodoxy, then do it, but don't bother me with your propagada against the true faith. I will answer you this one time, but I won't bother with you again. Either you believe or you don't. If you don't like to hear about the Orthodox faith then buzz off. I won't waste my energy.

Joanna

[strastnaya]

strastnaya,

Who ever you may be..here is my answer to your questions:

So if the EP is "out there" in his practice of Orthodoxy how does the Church bring him back?

I signed my name, it's Deacon John.
Furthermore you're answers to me seem bizarre, Joanna.
"Either you believe or you don't. If you don't like to hear about the Orthodox faith then buzz off. I won't waste my energy." and follow that up with a quote from the Apostle Paul about "bearing one anothers burdens".???
Please get some help.
Deacon John

[George Australia]

you're answers to me seem bizarre

Welcome to Euphrosynoscafe!

[Priest Siluan]

I think that Joanna is right and what she says in no way to be "bizzarre", but it is the reality. On the other hand I think that truly bizzarre is the whole time to try to do fun of people like some few ones, full with pride, do here.

[joasia]

strastnaya

Bearing one another's burdens refers to being compassionate to our brothers and sisters-in-Christ for their spiritual struggles. We feel joy with them when they are joyous and we sorrow with them when they are in sorrow. This comes from the heart.

You are not addressing a subject on that matter. You are voicing the ecumenist propagada, whether you do it intentionally or in ignorance. I will not share the joys and sorrows of the soviet government. And we all know what they have done and continue to do..

Perhaps I shouldn't have said buzz off...perhaps I should say: get thee behind me satan.

Here's another quote by St. Paul, for the matter at hand:

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received from us." (2 Thes;3;6)

This refers to hierarchs, clergy and laymen who ARE causing dissention in an established body of the church of Christ that had stayed seperate from ecumenism. The restlessness of these people had been brewing for many years, even over 20 years, but nothing was attempted as strongly as it was since the repose of Met. Philaret. After he died, everything started moving at an excelerated rate(behind closed doors - unknown to most laity).

There seems to be a great urgency in uniting with the MP. Many voices of all ranks have voiced their disagreement for such a pre-mature step. But, the bishops and especially Met Lavr, just want to do their own thing. This brings me to my response towards you. I put FULL RESPONSIBILTY on the clergy for their obvious je m'en fou reaction to the pain of the laymen. You couldn't care less to hear our concern...all you want to do is try to convince us with lies of great religious fervour that is allegedly happening in Russia.

So let those bishops, priests and deacons go to their bondage under a soviet religious establishment that was created, not of Holy Rus, but of bolshevism and communism and marxism, who's patriarch is a former KGB agent! and many of the other bishops and priests too. I refuse to bare THAT burden...my salvation depends on it. I must cut myself off from clergy like that...because it is the clergy,not the laymen that will hold an empty Chalice if I chose to partake, just for the sake of thinking it might be alright. It's not alright and I know it. And that stands true for the EP too. The laymen who attend these jurisdictions are not to be judged for they go in ignorance, but watch out when their eyes are opened! It's the hierarchs and clergy who should be judged for they know what they are doing.

Like attracts like...but as you see...many of us...don't like. And those who want to stay clear of the harlot of ecumenism will unite and be strong. It won't be like the splinters we have now. I hope these groups will all agree to unite in truth. Perhaps we will be the last wave of exodus from Egypt.

And what I meant when I said, "whoever you may be", was referring to the fact that I don't know what church you serve in or even if you are a real deacon. But, you have the same beliefs as Lebedev and Shaw and many like them. And I'll tell them to buzz off too. I don't want to hear their lies.

Joanna

[George Australia]

And those who want to stay clear of the harlot of ecumenism will unite and be strong. It won't be like the splinters we have now.

You think so? I disagree. I think that schism begets schism, and yet more schism. And history seems to back me up.

I must cut myself off from clergy like that...because it is the clergy,not the laymen that will hold an empty Chalice if I chose to partake, just for the sake of thinking it might be alright.

If the clergy hold an "empty chalice" then don't the lay people also? If you are saying that the Mysteries of other Churches are graceless (as all "True Orthodox" claim- even about other "True Orthodox" Churches to their own), then doesn't that mean that even the laymen who receive them in ignorance receive no benefit from them since the Mysteries cannot be "graceless" for the clergy, yet contain grace for the "ignorant laity" that you are so much wiser than? At any rate, I thank you for having the courage to clearly state what each "True Orthodox" Church believes about itself- ie, that they alone are the Church.

[joasia]

George,

If the clergy hold an "empty chalice" then don't the lay people also?

I said if "I" chose to partake...to me It will be empty( I will not receive the Grace) because I know the truth about their heretical dogmas, just as I know the truth about the papist dogmas; would you take Holy Communion in a papist "church"?

And I said that the clergy hold an empty Chalice(because they promote the heresy of ecumenism - it is their condemnation); the EP and MP organizations, as they have become, are not blessed by God. The Holy Spirit is Truth and cannot be mixed with heresy. Economia will be to those laymen who still live in spiritual ignorance...for Christ does not condemn those who are blind and CANNOT see(for satan is blinding them), but if they, in their hearts, start to want to know the truth, then He will heal their spiritual blindness. And those clergy who may be blind too, will still be judged with harshness for they willing accepted the office of hierarch, priest or deacon as the beacons of God in the Orthodox Church; their entire lives are meant to confess and guide in the true Church that Christ established with the Apostles. For the more we know and understand about the truth that Christ teaches, the more we are responsible to do the right thing and the more we will be judged by Him.

Those here who are so eager to join with the MP should read the "Sticky" posted in this section; it explains everything clearly, as it has always been. Thank you to the moderators for posting it. There is no need for dialogue for the Canons and quotes are all that is needed to understand what the Orthodox Church should be.

If the clergy hold an "empty chalice" then don't the lay people also? If you are saying that the Mysteries of other Churches are graceless (as all "True Orthodox" claim- even about other "True Orthodox" Churches to their own), then doesn't that mean that even the laymen who receive them in ignorance receive no benefit from them since the Mysteries cannot be "graceless" for the clergy, yet contain grace for the "ignorant laity" that you are so much wiser than?

Grace, out of economia can be given to whomever God so wills it. Grace cannot be directed by creation; I cannot make It move where I will because of what I think is right or wrong - I can only observe what is right and wrong in faith and if it is wrong, I cannot participate in it. Even St. Maximos the Confessor cut himself off from all the hierarchs because of their monothelistic dogmas. He wanted no part in Holy Communion with them, just as St. Mark of Ephesus did. Would these great saints of the Orthodox Church do such a thing if they believed that the Grace of the Holy Spirit was there?? How could they?? They would be rejecting God. I have no need of any other examples to explain this point.

At any rate, I thank you for having the courage to clearly state what each "True Orthodox" Church believes about itself- ie, that they alone are the Church.

I did not say anything that was of my own imagination. What I stated was a compilation of the many writings of the holy fathers and the recent beacons of Orthodoxy such as St. Thikon, Metropolitan Philaret, Archbp Averky, St. John of San Francisco and Fr. Seraphim Rose, to name a few. If I hadn't read their confessions, then I'd probably still be a papist.

You certainly do like to insinuate alot, George. I think you are still confused about what I mean; perhaps I don't express it clearly, so it's good that you ask these questions so that I can clarify myself.

At any rate, you're welcome.

And also, I hold the same convictions about the EP and MP as St. Mark of Ephesus did about the Patriarchs when he stated:

And lest my silence give occasion to those who do not know my views well and fully to suspect some kind of conciliation, I hereby state and testify before the many worthy men here present that I do not desire, in any manner and absolutely, and do not accept communion with him or with those who are with him, not in this life nor after my death, just as (I accept) neither the Union nor Latin dogmas, which he and his adherents have accepted, and for the enforcement of which he has occupied this presiding place, with the aim of overturning the true dogmas of the Church. I am absolutely convinced that the farther I stand from him and those like him, the nearer I am to God and all the saints, and to the degree that I separate myself from them am in union with the Truth and with the Holy Fathers, the Theologians of the Church; and I am likewise convinced that those who count themselves with them stand far away from the Truth and from the blessed Teachers of the Church.

Joanna