The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

Well...I've made several threads about this in WO forums, but never really on a TO forum, and, it's something I struggle with quite a bit. What is the Church's teaching on "self-abuse"? And, why exactly is it so bad? I don't necessarily get it. If God didn't want me to, then why did He give me biological urges? Isn't better to "self-abuse" myself than to really go out and fornicate? We live in a world where sexual temptation is everywhere, and it's pretty hard to resist. I feel I've done pretty well in that I haven't really fornicated (even when everyone else does) but why can't I "self abuse" myself? What else am I supposed to do whenever I get a burning in my loins? I try and try to stop, but it's tough, and it relieves tension. I'm able to battle and put under control pretty much all my other vices relatively well, but when it comes to my passion and lust, I just can't control it. I want "self-abuse" so badly. What's the harm in it? I mean, I could see some harm in pornography maybe, but what if I don't use pornography when I masturbate? What's so wrong with "self-abuse"? I'm a 17 year old male; I got hormones. What am I supposed to do? I mean, it's better than really going out and having sex isn't it?

Work on SELF-CONTROL !

Someone ELSE can explain the Church point of view, but it's actually harmful to the soul AND health.
A brilliant doctor mentioned this problem -- using this same term along with even more of an antiquated terminology -- back in the 1920s and 30s as being the root of the decadence of that entire era.
He saw so many young men who were doing that and they quickly declined in their mental capacity compared with those who controlled themselves
and many died at earlier ages than they were supposed to.

If that was a problem THEN, what about 80-90 years later ? So it's better to think about other topics. Because there could be a problem
of demons trying to start this and then get you ADDICTED !

If you break the habit entirely and focus on something positive and constructive, prayer life or studies or learning about other cultures,
learning Russian language and history if you are going to possibly consider a Russian TOC, for example -
these will use up that extra energy which is getting siphoned off.
And worst of all, probably your energy is getting taken away and handed DIRECTLY to demons.

How's that for an off the cuff analysis ? The last part just occurred to me at the moment.

I trust that Doctor very much, though> He knew exactly what one must do to have lifelong health and vitality -
and conversely what will sabotage these. Everything he says rings true. So I believe that it would be a good idea to
try to get de-addicted before your vital energy is depleted. It's dangerous. Once weakened, you can be easy prey for OTHER demons
than this particular variety. I think they specialize.

James,

You have a lot of guts my friend. This type of topic usually only comes up in confession.

Let's look at sin. Sin is bad, no? ANY sin is bad. We try to rationalize sin into levels of severity; this is from the evil one. Every single little sin can be likened to radiation: the more little doses you get, the more it builds up, and soon your hair is falling out. To use another example, "little" sins are like termites or ants. You may see one in your home and think "It's only one, no worries." but in reality that one is a harbinger of many. These little creatures eat away at the base of your home (soul) until one day it is infested. How do you know it's infested? It falls apart. If we let the "little" sins go, the rest of us becomes infested with sin, then bigger sins come along and spiritually kill us.

We want sin. It's fun, feels good, doesn't seem to harm anyone. The problem is that it IS damaging to us, no matter how big. The sin in question -like all sin- is the taking out of context, the abuse, the distortion of the good that God created. God knew what he was doing, and the abuse of certain parts is completely opposite of what the sexual act was intended for. It brings in lust, covetousness, and a misuse of the emotions and physicality of love.

As with food, which is good (some even relate certain foods to sex) we abstain from it for a time and for other reasons. It too can be taken out of its context and abused, hence gluttony. When we fast, we set aside ourselves and our wants, we grab hold of grace and we fight the urge to eat so much. The same goes for all people -even married couples- in regards to this sin.

It opens the door to other sin, other disease, by weakening us and often outright spiritually damaging us. Controlling it is difficult ( some say there are those who do it, and there are liars) and hard to overcome once the habit sets in. But it is to be fought with the utmost vigor like any sin, and when we fall, we get back up and go to confession, pleading for God's help in all contrition. Remember that when you fall you MUST get back up with God's help. Otherwise, the sin will never be overcome.

I think that it must be very difficult to be a young man in this society in regards to sexual sins.
Ask Our Lord to give you strength and patience, James.
The main purpose of sex is procreation but it also has a secondary and equally important function: to bring together in closeness one man and one woman in marriage.
The more it is mis-used for solitary recreation, the more difficult it becomes to use it for its main purposes.
While it is good you do not indulge in pornography, if you were honest, isn't your mind filled with pornographic imagery while you "abuse yourself?" If you can, think of the young women who supply this imagery and have enough compassion on them to not exploit them.
Also, if you become addicted to this behaviour, it will become a contentious issue between you and your future wife.
One last thing: don't do anything you wouldn't do with your mother in the room
That's my two cents, from an old woman to a young man.

frphoti wrote:

James,

Let's look at sin. Sin is bad, no? ANY sin is bad. We try to rationalize sin into levels of severity; this is from the evil one. Every single little sin can be likened to radiation: the more little doses you get, the more it builds up, and soon your hair is falling out. To use another example, "little" sins are like termites or ants. You may see one in your home and think "It's only one, no worries." but in reality that one is a harbinger of many. These little creatures eat away at the base of your home (soul) until one day it is infested. How do you know it's infested? It falls apart. If we let the "little" sins go, the rest of us becomes infested with sin, then bigger sins come along and spiritually kill us.

My understanding, which may be wrong but is based on the Manual of Confession by St Nicodemus the Hagiorite, is that we should keep track of all our sins and confess them, but that there is also a distinction between more serious and less serious sins. I'm not sure how one can say that distinguishing between more and less serious sins is from the evil one, when the distinction is maintained by St Nicodemus. Could you say a bit more about this, Father?

Certainly.

What I mean is the rationalizations that we use to make sin an "okay" thing. "Oh, it's just a little sin." or rather, "Well, at least it isn't X sin, so it's not so bad." We can use the "It's not fornicating, so that's the better." The lesser of two evils is still evil, no?

A person who is struggling with a sin such as this cannot rationalize, because then it leads to more and more sin. I have seen it pastorally, and it leads to the sin becoming ingrained, thus gravitating to itself many more "little" sins that make the person very morally lax and okay with a lot of things they shouldn't be. From a pastoral point of view, you cut out sin in any size or number so that it doesn't metastasize and take over the person.

So to try and diminish the greatness of any sin's affect on the soul is TO ME, from the devil. The distinction between more and less serious sins does not negate the sin, but only changes how the spiritual guide/physician deals with it pertaining to the soul of the person confessing. In my opinion the book you are quoting from is best used by a spiritual father.It is of course, a wonderful book (beautifully produced too!) but to me it has a very precise audience in mind. There are some things that St. Nikodemus wrote in it that are quite sever, but a spiritual father reading it can see when things are to be taken with a dose of pastoral economia or discernment. He being a pastor of souls thinks like the rest of us. A layman reading it may see some very severe things, but another spiritual father will see the proper applications of medicine, both harsh and lenient. It is perfectly good for one to see an extreme reaction to sin if that reaction brings one to confession. Sometimes we need to be slapped upside the back of the head to see where we have gone wrong. I had it done to me once in confession, and I never did it again. And of course, if there is someone coming to us struggling with some sin for years, falling and getting back up, we lovingly apply the medicine in order to heal them and keep them close to Christ. It reminds me of a saying of St. Mark the Ascetic, "At the times when you remember God, increase your prayers, so that when you forget Him, the Lord may remind you."

To recap: Sins are distinguished by their severity in the aid of a pastor directing the soul of one of his sheep. Sin is sin. None of it should be embraced for fear of embracing a cancer that may kill you. To fall prey to the idea that any sin is okay is from the evil one. That's my point.

Forgive my rambling.

That's a great answer, Father! It actually clears up some confusion I've had over this myself regarding this distinction. It makes perfect sense now. From the point of view of the penitent, all sins are sins, whether you're talking about adultery or eating dairy on a fast day: whatever is on your conscience, confess it! From the point of view of the spiritual father, on the other hand, he certainly must take into account the gravity of each sin when prescribing a spiritual remedy. And it's just like going to the doctor, as you say: whether your symptom is coughing up blood or a slight pain in your chest, you need to inform your physician about it.