Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

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сынок
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Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

Post by сынок »

ROCie, ROCA and who knows how many others became 'cowboys'.. it really confuses me how the present day agafangelites made their choice here in the west.

In my opinion, I feel the real ROCA is the Vitaly group now under Bishop Vladimir. Meet the team; http://roca-sobor.org

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Barbara
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Re: Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

Post by Barbara »

Sinok, I think you are old enough to remember the TV show [one of the absolute few I would ever mention ! So trashy, 99.9% of them !] called "To Tell the Truth" ?

The 3 contestants would be asked questions to determine which of them was the REAL [ so and so ].
The moderator would then dramatically exhort the 3 contenders : "Will the REAL (ROCOR) PLEASE STAND UP ?"

So we are facing this exact same situation. By the way, the other 2 were figurative forerunners of all the imposter scam artists running around today, decades later.

I am not convinced about any of the contenders for THIS title !

Surely NOT Agafangel, the former Komsomolite, though his groups is very active and in many ways, impressive.
It's their ecclesiology which hurts them.

RTOC does not TRY to pretend to be "THE continuation of Genuine Rocor". Wisely so, as we have great Bishops who have long experience.
This is quite different from the young and inexperienced Archbishop - or is he calling himself Metropolitan now - Vladimir ? Let me check the link you presented, Sinok.

I do look there once in a very long while.

I noticed when a certain Archpriest changed over to Archbishop Vladimir and promptly was consecrated Bishop. I heard about that in my parish from a visitor from his country.

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Barbara
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Re: Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

Post by Barbara »

Hmm. Has he been demoted back to Archpriest ? He used to be listed in their directory as "Bishop".
I see where Archbishop Vladimir was met by him and others last year upon arriving in the country. This cleric was mentioned as Bishop then.

Anyone have a clue ?
Was the Directory listing due to a typo ? Or something has been afoot ? I assume not, but it seems odd.

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Barbara
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Re: Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

Post by Barbara »

Look what I happened upon !

"We are glad to welcome you to the official website of the Transfiguration of our Lord Russian Orthodox Church, located in the city of Baltimore, the state of Maryland, USA. The church belongs to the original Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) and has as its goal the preservation of the spiritual traditions and the treasure of church services of ancient Russian Orthodoxy."
http://www.holy-transfiguration.org/index.html

It was so unclear of WHICH Rocor this Fr Ioann Barbus was speaking that I wasn't sure where to begin searching to verify his jurisdiction. I located the self-described member parish of "the ORIGINAL ROCOR" in the roster of Rocor-Mp. Assumedly that is kept up to date.

You are perceptive, then, Sinok, in pointing out how the claims do fly back and forth, whether among TOC jurisdictions or Rocor-MP versus TOC claimants to this great mantle of the historical Rocor !

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Re: Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

Post by Justice »

Barbara wrote:

The 3 contestants would be asked questions to determine which of them was the REAL [ so and so ].
The moderator would then dramatically exhort the 3 contenders : "Will the REAL (ROCOR) PLEASE STAND UP ?"

RTOC does not TRY to pretend to be "THE continuation of Genuine Rocor". Wisely so, as we have great Bishops who have long experience.
This is quite different from the young and inexperienced Archbishop - or is he calling himself Metropolitan now - Vladimir ? Let me check the link you presented, Sinok.
]
I noticed when a certain Archpriest changed over to Archbishop Vladimir and promptly was consecrated Bishop. I heard about that in my parish from a visitor from his country.

You are correct Barbara in saying that no single synod should claim to be the sole successor to the Church, especially since almost every True Orthodox group has valid claims. That being said, where did you here about this quickly executed consecration? As you know, it's hard to find information regarding the various ROCIE groups online.

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Orthodox in Michigan
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Re: Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

Post by Orthodox in Michigan »

Justice wrote:
Barbara wrote:

The 3 contestants would be asked questions to determine which of them was the REAL [ so and so ].
The moderator would then dramatically exhort the 3 contenders : "Will the REAL (ROCOR) PLEASE STAND UP ?"

RTOC does not TRY to pretend to be "THE continuation of Genuine Rocor". Wisely so, as we have great Bishops who have long experience.
This is quite different from the young and inexperienced Archbishop - or is he calling himself Metropolitan now - Vladimir ? Let me check the link you presented, Sinok.
]
I noticed when a certain Archpriest changed over to Archbishop Vladimir and promptly was consecrated Bishop. I heard about that in my parish from a visitor from his country.

You are correct Barbara in saying that no single synod should claim to be the sole successor to the Church, especially since almost every True Orthodox group has valid claims. That being said, where did you here about this quickly executed consecration? As you know, it's hard to find information regarding the various ROCIE groups online.

I am familiar with the order of patriarchate tikon and the ukase he issued to preserve the church, however the greek case and what st mathew believed was the church is one and having a unbroken physical and spiritual apostolic succession, how can the church be divided with other groups having no communion with each other what change justified that?

If the calendar change in 1924 caused these problems and it was solved after st mathew establised a synod with bishops how can any one else clam to to be the church not recognize others mysteries and still justify their right to being the church unless st matthews thinking was incorrect how can this be or how long can these groups be separated and not unify ?

It may sound crazy one old calendar church claming to be one however that was exactly what st mathew beleived when he declared the new calendar church in schism, how many churches in old calendar groups will let a new calendar visitors slide and receive communion ? Would not that then justify they are still a church?

All are then no different in their confession of faith than the others because their actions speak louder than than their words they ultimately all have the same confession and it really makes no difference what group you belong to would that be correct?

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Re: Who is the true ROCOR or ROCA now?

Post by Agios_Irineos »

Orthodox in michigan wrote:

If the calendar change in 1924 caused these problems and it was solved after st mathew establised a synod with bishops how can any one else clam to to be the church not recognize others mysteries and still justify their right to being the church unless st matthews thinking was incorrect how can this be or how long can these groups be separated and not unify ?

How exactly did a hieromonk establish a synod of bishops? Was he given magical powers to ordain bishops that never before have been found in priests? Is this another canonical anomaly or are you maybe taking your admiration a bit too far and overstating the case? It was all St. Matthew in your world?

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