The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Formerly "Intra-TOC Private Discussions."


User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Post by Maria »

Hieromonk Enoch wrote at facebook on June 27, 2016 (Monday Eastern Daylight Time)

The official position of the early GOC Synod from the beginning was that the Patriarchates that still retained the Church Calendar were Canonical, EVEN THOUGH, they still maintained communion with the New Calendar State Church of Greece! Now, we may think this view is wrong, or that it simply illustrates an early point in the Greek Orthodox Old Calendarist thinking, and that this changed in the 1960s, etc, with the mass ecumenical movement, etc, etc. But, even after the 1935 Confession agreed to by the three metropolitans, they still officially regarded the Old Calendar Patriarchates as Orthodox; however, they regarded the New Calendar State Church as non-Orthodox. But, then, we might ask why was there such an uproar when Met. Chrysostomos made some wish-washy statements only a few months later, which seemed seemed less radical than the statement that Orthodox Patriarchates were in communion with non-Orthodox State Church?

http://www.slideshare.net/SpyridonVoyk… ... ias1935eng

http://www.slideshare.net/SpyridonVoy…/ ... ngelmabeng

A confused situation? Very possible. Could the early GOC change its position, or harden it after time? Sure. Is there anything wrong with re-evaluating, or coming to a clearer view? Nope. Then why the attacks on those who take different time periods to do this? We might further ask, "Are Greek bishops able to determine this route for the entire world?"

Of course, today, groups that identify as True Orthodox have all quite rightly hardened their position (look at the analysis of RTOC recently published, where they honestly and frankly look at many of these issues, albeit from a Russian ecclesiastical perspective). Why should RTOC have been bound by decisions and fights by Greek bishops in the 1930s? Why should Greeks even 40 or 80 years later be bound by these same fights? Why should anyone be bound to arriving at the same time at the right conclusion?

I am quoting this post from facebook in its entirety to avoid taking anything out of context, and to let other viewers see what is being said, as some refuse to join facebook due to its sometimes vile postings. These points being made are critical to our understanding of the beginnings of True Orthodoxy as it was the New Calendar and Ecumenists issues (1920 and 1924) which spearheaded our origins.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Post by Maria »

discussion on facebook follows here:

Vladimir Moss -- I think the 1983 anathema is binding on everyone. Cyprianism arose because he did not want to be bound by that decision. But he was.

Hieromonk Enoch -- Not that I don't agree with the anathema (because I do), but, the question is still, "Why does the ROCOR Synod in 1983 get to bind everyone else?" For example, if I find a set of anathemas from an English Synod in the 700s, passed by Saints, are those binding on everyone else?

For example, the Matthewites weren't in communion with ROCOR when the anathema was passed. Were they bound by it? ...

Vladimir Moss -- For two main reasons. First, because of ROCOR's leadership role in the whole of the True Orthodox Church in that period. Both Greek Synods derived their canonicity from her. Secondly, and more importantly, I don't remember the canons here, but I believe that if even one bishop anathematizes someone in accordance with truth and justice, then no other bishop throughout the world can receive that person into communion, implicitly recognizing the validity of that anathema.

Hieromonk Enoch -- Ok. As regards the first reason, this is simply begging the question of leadership role. If one Local Church consecrates Bishops for another, which had none, then, these two Local Churches sever communion (or it ends for whatever reason), how does the Local Church that came to the aid of the other still have leadership? Not to mention the Matthewites made it explicit that they never regarded the ROCOR actions as making them a Church, or surrendering themselves to ROCOR.

As regards the second point, that's a much better point.

Vladimir Moss -- A true anathema if issued by canonical bishops in accordance with truth and justice is simply an expression of God's will, His binding. Other Synods can contest it on two grounds: the bishops who issued it are not canonical (which still leaves open the question of whether it expresses the truth) or it is not in fact the expression of God's will and God's truth. The latter is the more fundamental objection.

Hieromonk Enoch -- However, St. Alexander anathematized / condemned the Arian heresy years prior to the First Ecumenical Council. Was the First Ecumenical Council then only a confirmatory council, or were all those who professed Arianism prior to it, even Bishops, automatically severed from the Church as soon as the anathema was pronounced in Alexandria years before 325?

Vladimir Moss -- I believe that the First Ecumenical Council confirmed Arius' deposition. As for pre-Nicaea Arian bishops, they were alien to the organism of Christ's Church immediately they pronounced their heresy publicly (15th canon of the First and Second Council), but remained within the external organization of the Church until Nicaea. After all, St. John the Apostle ran away from the bathhouse when Cerinthus, the Arian heretic, entered. He did not wait for a Council.

Hieromonk Enoch -- In other words, we must clearly distinguish between external and internal union to the Body of Chirst?

  • Vladimir Moss -- Yes. This distinction was first made, to my knowledge, by New Hieromartyr Mark of Sergievo, the organizer of the Catacomb Church in Moscow.

Hieromonk Enoch -- How does the anathema work itself out, in terms of severing bishops?

Hieromonk Enoch -- There is also the other issue that the Matthewites may have issued their own condemnation of ecumenism years prior. If they did this, and ROCOR hadn't, would this place ROCOR in a precarious position, then?

Vladimir Moss -- I think yourself [said] that the GOC of Greece only declared the State Church of Greece to be outside the Church. At the same time, in 1935, Ataturk ordered all Greek (new calendar) priests to remove their riasas! It was not an anathema.

Hieromonk Enoch -- How does the anathema work itself out, in terms of severing bishops?

Hieromonk Enoch -- There is also the other issue that the Matthewites may have issued their own condemnation of ecumenism years prior. If they did this, and ROCOR hadn't, would this place ROCOR in a precarious position, then?

Vladimir Moss -- I think yourself [said] that the GOC of Greece only declared the State Church of Greece to be outside the Church. At the same time, in 1935, Ataturk ordered all Greek (new calendar) priests to remove their riasas! It was not an anathema.

Vladimir Moss -- In any case, even while an anathema is universal in significance, God does give time to others to learn about it and take appropriate action.

Hieromonk Enoch -- However, this is part of the problem. They were still declaring themselves in communion with people who [w]ere, therefore, in communion with non-Orthodox. How Does the anathema / condemnation not fall back on them, since they are in 'indirect' communion with those whom they have condemned?

Hieromonk Enoch -- I'm not necessarily disagreeing with everything you are saying, Vladimr. I find the most situation of the past 90 years just as problematic as how we can consider St. Cyril a Saint, and even have an Ecumenical Council declare his consecration 'canonical', when he was publicly consecrated by condemned Arian heretics (i.e. the Acacians). Is there a solution? Yes. Do I know exactly what it is? No. And neither do a lot of people I ask and read.

Vladimir Moss -- I think "indirect" is the key word here. An anathema anathematizes those who fall under it directly - Arians, new calendarists, ecumenists, etc. Those who do not profess these heresies, but remain in communion with do, are in another category. Obviously, they should break with the heretics. But it is not clear to me that they automatically fall under that anathema if they do not. The Matthewites say that they do, quoting St. John Chrysostom to the effect that he who communicates with one that is anathematized is himself automatically anathematized. But I would like to see what St. John actually said, chapter and verse. As regards ROCOR, I don't believe they knew of the Greek decision of 1935 in any case.

Hieromonk Enoch -- Exactly. That's what I was getting at. In complete agreement.

Vladimir Moss -- In all these discussions, I think we have to remember that God is sovereign, and may make exceptions to His own rules. That doesn't mean, however, that we are entitled to break the rules ourselves.

Hieromonk Enoch -- True. But, we have enough complicated situations in Church history as to prevent us from knowing exactly what to do in all situations immediately. St. Meletius, and St. Cyril, etc, of course, may have been consecrated by Arians, but, they didn't remain with them. They broke with them.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Post by Maria »

continued

Vladimir Moss -- Take another case: the Romanian Old Calendarists. The Romanian state church accepted the new calendar in 1924. The Old Calendarists separated from them, but, unlike in Greece, did not declare that they had no grace - although they always received them by chrismation. In 1955 Bishop Galacteon from the State Church, who had been ordained in 1935, joined them. They could not give him cheirothesia, because they had no bishops of their own. So they just accepted him. Was the already a bishop? If 1924 is the cut-off point, then no. If, however, he was ordained in the period that God gave to the new calendarists to repent, then yes. In any case, the Callistite Synod in 1979, on entering into communion with them, declared that they were already Orthodox.

Vladimir Moss -- A footnote to that. A few years ago, Archbishop Kallinikos, who had been a member of the Kallistite Synod in 1979, declared that the Kallistites had received the Romanians into the Church at that time. The Romanians denied it. So did Bishop Ambrose of Methone, who was the translator for the two Synods. And Ambrose showed me the proof that the Callistes had accepted the Romanians without anything. Kallinikos simply lied.

Hieromonk Enoch -- Two points: 1) Exact cut off dates of Grace can be tricky pronouncements, unless there is a very clear and existing authority (like a Synod that is indisputably recognized). Otherwise, it becomes an hazy period, sometimes of decades, before everything solidifies.

2) When we are dealing with the encroachments of modernism and ecumenism on the Church, although they are still heresies, the manner in which these heresies arise and infiltrate, is often more insidious and unnoticed than previous ones. Oftentimes, ecumenist-modernism turns into a moving target. Perhaps because it is the ultimate heresy. It combines all the methods of previous ones.

Vladimir Moss -- http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/a ... -anathema/

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Mark Templet
Member
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon 6 August 2007 2:59 pm
Location: Abita Springs, LA

Re: The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Post by Mark Templet »

In my opinion:

We should think of the Church as always maintaining a Conservation of Grace. I will define this term as: God’s intent to provide Grace under all circumstances that can lead a person down the true path of salvation in the Church.

Let’s use an example, Bishop A professes a heresy on Sunday X. His priests and fellow bishops hear about such two Sundays later (X + 2). At first, they try to get to the bottom of the story, and someone seeks clarity from Bishop A about what he said. Bishop A doubles down on his heresy and by Sunday X+4 the synod suspends Bishop A and his priests are instructed not to commemorate him or serve with him. A spiritual court trial proceeds and finds him guilty and he is finally anathematized. Some questions come from this: 1) When did Bishop A lose Grace? 2) Did the priests under him or the bishops in communion with him lose Grace during the 4 weeks?

If heresy is the condition of uncorrectable error- then it is by definition a choice. You have to not only be wrong, but someone has to present your error to you and you have to refuse to be corrected. If during this process, people who are not directly involved (but affected) are confused or unsure of the facts, why would God withhold his Grace to aid such people? However, upon making the decision to refuse to be corrected by the Church, why would a merciful God leave His Grace with such people and help them make their situation worse. God does not violate our freewill and make us turn away from heresy, yet He is not required to continue to participate in such error. In the above case, Bishop A loses Grace the moment he knows he chooses his error over the established truth. If that moment is when he latches onto his error knowing what the Holy Tradition says, then that is the moment he loses Grace. If the matter is less clear, but the synod rules against him and he refuses at that point, then that is the moment. By extension, all those who are in communion with Bishop A go through the same process.

To take this example further, supposed Priest B was there on Sunday X and heard Bishop A with his own ears and recognized his heresy immediately. If Priest B questions Bishop A and finds his answers lacking, he is perfectly justified to break communion with Bishop A immediately and appeal to the synod for help. At the same time, Priest C was far away from all of this on Sunday X. Although Priest C rejects the heresy as well, he hears all sorts of accounts of what happened, and they conflict somewhat. He decides to wait for the synod to act before doing anything. He too is correct in his response since it is not his place to make such determinations based on what he has available. Thus during this entire ordeal, God’s Grace is conserved in those who are acting with purity of heart to combat the heresy as best they can, given what they have.

Thus, I see the same within True Orthodoxy. This process had to unfold as in the example above. Some, can act more quickly because the situation is clearer to them, having witnessed it firsthand. Others might be more cautious and be justified to do so until more clarity is reached. It is not uncommon within Church history to have such instances of confusion and caution.

However, at this point, how can anyone believe that God’s Grace is within the World Orthodox who are ravenously rejecting Holy Tradition in favor of ecumenism, and falling for the seduction of the false shepherds outside the Church? Why would anyone need to still be cautious? The evidence and canonical violations are mountainous at this point! I can see no way that the Conservation of Grace could be actually helping anyone among them at this point. Yes, I’m sure that God will have mercy on many, especially converts who know no better, of those ignorant of the choice. But this has never been the standard of the Church; such blatant refusal for correction has never gone on this long without the Church getting to a determination. It is time to stop tiptoeing around something so obvious at this point.

Fr. Mark Templet
ROAC

User avatar
diakrisis
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu 3 March 2016 10:23 am
Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: GOC-K
Location: νοῦς

Re: The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Post by diakrisis »

[...sharing]

Responses to a Correspondent

The following is an exchange between Archbishop Chrysostomos and a clergyman in a modernist jurisdiction on a variety of timely topics. While they constitute his personal views, and are not meant as a statement of the official policies of our Synod, we found His Eminences’ replies to the questions posed by this correspondent particularly useful and insightful. We publish them here for the benefit of our readers—Editors.

Question: Can Grace be present in parishes or Orthodox jurisdictions in part or in some limited way? Or do they either have Grace or not have it?

Answer: Mathematical approaches to Grace are useless. They are Western in provenance and foreign to the Apostolic Church. Quantification is not the issue. Grace is where God grants it. The mystery of that gift is unknown to us, except in the area of revelational ecclesiology, where the presence of Grace is defined and delineated by God Himself. It is simply ours, in the observance of the Canons and the fullness of Orthodoxy within the Church as it has been revealed by God and handed down to us, to follow obediently the Fathers and Saints. We trust, as Orthodox Christians, that God will bestow His Grace upon us for our efforts to follow their path to enlightenment and theosis, or divinization, which is what salvation actually is—I should note—according to Patristic tradition.

Question: Some Orthodox jurisdictions—e.g.. yours—feature traditional church buildings, follow the Church (or Old) Calendar, and are careful to follow traditional liturgical practices. They also often question the appropriateness of the ecumenical movement (or condemn it). Do you believe that the Energies of God, or Grace. are found more abundantly in their sacraments and church life?

Answer: The Energies of God (Grace) and the salvific efficacy of the Mysteries (“Sacraments”) exist where one communes, again, with the Truth of Orthodoxy, which is manifested, in turn, in the life of the Church. That truth, as I said above, is appropriated through imitation and observance: when we preserve all that has been handed down to us by the sages of our Faith, whether in writing or by oral tradition, as St. Paul exhorts us, and when we observe every Canon and tradition of the Church—however minute or apparently insignificant—to the best of our ability, as St. Theodore the Studite says. In so doing, we are not saved by our efiorts, but by the Grace of God, with which we come into communion through that synergy with Him that is effected by our faithful efforts.

There are those who call this fundamentalism, but this is because they have built an artificial (innovative and modernist) religion within the framework of Orthodoxy (as Bishop Photii of Triaditza [First Hierarch of the Old Calendar Orthodox Church of Bulgaria—Ed] so perfectly describes the modernist Orthodoxy that he saw in the West), hoping that without obedience, humility, repentance of a truly spiritual kind, asceticism, sacrifice, and observance, they can, in this religion of their own creation, achieve [theosis]. In fact, however, lacking all of these things (“that which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached, and the Fathers preserved”), they come to naught, since they lack a final essential: love. They do not love those traditions which, for us, contain and express externally the inner essence of the Faith. They lack our attraction through love to things that, for them, are dead rituals and “mere human behaviors.”

These “non-traditional” Orthodox are attracted to what is, in essence, a fundamentalistic construct of Orthodoxy: Patriarchates, administrative prerogatives, high-sounding historical claims and cute phrases (“Christianity’s oldest Church,” “the place where Christians were first called Christians”), and primacy of a very personal and prideful kind, which they apply or relax and toss aside (as in their ecumenistic activities) when comfort or expediency dictates. They seek to be recognized by the world in a religion which must, in its true form, resist, transform, and restore the world. In short, their fundamentalism is self-serving. If we are fundamentalists by adhering to Tradition, I would submit that this is not really fundamentalism, but observance and prudence. It is also an earmark of spiritual authenticity and the primacy of prophecy over order.

If what I have described applies to so-called “official” or “world” Orthodoxy, as well as many of the “modernist” Orthodox jurisdictions in this country (the OCA, the Antiochians, the majority of Greek New Calendarists), that speaks for itself. It does not mean, as they say of us, that they are bereft of hope for enlightenment, that they are somehow outside the Church, or that they are all deluded fundamentalists. That is, of course, certainly not mine to say. It does mean that they follow something of their own making. How God relates to that creation, in terms of their sincerity and intention, I also cannot say. I can only identify what Orthodoxy and the Fathers teach us and say that these innovating Orthodox have not fully embraced that. The consequences of what they have done are not things to be quantified; they are things about which we can only be circumspect, in terms of consequence, as we nonetheless vociferously repeat what the Fathers say of Orthodoxy and what it must entail.

It goes without saying, I should note, that there are assuredly some traditionalist-minded, sincere Orthodox in modernist jurisdictions. What they also are, at the same time, by virtue of maintaining communion with what I have heretofore described—this is a matter of no little concern. But again, any final statement about them is not mine to make. Deus scit.

Question: Now, having asked about your View of traditionalists, let me ask about Orthodox jurisdictions that feature less traditional church architecture, use the “New” Calendar, are less exact in following the canons, are less traditional in worship, and are more ecumenical in their view. Do they have less (or even no) Grace in their sacraments and church life?

Answer: Vide supra. I can tell you, again, what Scripture, as understood from the Tradition in which it arose and was appointed, and what Holy Tradition, the Canons, the Patristic consensus, and the Saints tell us about whatwe must do to find ourselves in Grace, and thereby to be transformed, divinized, and joined to Christ (Who became man that we might [also] become Divine [by Grace], to quote the most common soteriological aphorism of the early Church). Like St. Mark of Ephesus, when he broke from the “official” Churches of “world” Orthodoxy after they had all accepted a false (political) union with the Papacy in the fifteenth century, we True Orthodox define ourselves by affirming, with him, that we are “united with the Truth and the Holy Fathers and Theologians of the Church” by our observance and traditionalism.

If one does not accept the narrow path of Orthodoxy, why should he care to be Orthodox, except for something so superficial as the fatuous, and fastuous claim—mentioned above—that he “belongs to the right religion”? This pursuit of proud status through religion is, to me, similar to the fruitless pursuit of a state-of-the-art telescope by a blind man.


As a post-script, let me say that if my comments seem at times sharp, they are deliberately so. Those who wish to compromise us Orthodox traditionalists, while adhering to some sort of religious syncretism or to the appurtenance of what used to be called the “comfortable pew,” should be quite forcefully upbraided for making us their allegedly fundamentalist “whipping boys.” They are not only unfair to us, but they also disfigure Patristic tradition itself, to which we turn in presenting an organic Orthodoxy which we live and which we try to preserve and which they use to denigrate us. As an example of all of this, I suggest that you read a piece on our Synod website: http://www.hsir.org/Annals_en/E2d029barnes.pdf. This article touches passim on many of the issues I have discussed above.

As for those critics who call us fundamentalistic cretins and hateful purveyors of a religion of laws and canons, on account of our opposition to the superficies of political ecumenism, many of the same have fiercely essayed to accommodate the fundamentalistic legalism of Papal supremacy to Orthodoxy, in their ecumenical efforts to court the (tarnished) prestige of the Vatican. Calling us “peasants in clerical garb” and religious bigots—and we are not bigots—, and accusing us of posing as “parallel churches” to their “official” bodies, they dismiss us as the detritus of antiquity, yet embrace the heterodox as “brothers.” This is where disdain for Holy Tradition and for those who follow it leads: to contradiction and hypocrisy. And one might rightly argue that these foibles at least compromise the action of Grace.

Orthodox Tradition. Volume XXIV, Number 3, Pages 41-43.

“…And because iniquity shall abound, the love [of the Truth] of many shall grow cold.”—St. Matthew (24:12)

User avatar
Maria
Archon
Posts: 8428
Joined: Fri 11 June 2004 8:39 pm
Faith: True Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOC
Location: USA

Re: The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Post by Maria »

What was the year in which this volume of Orthodox Tradition was published? Archbishop Chrysostomos is now retired as a Metropolitan in the GOC-K isn't he?

Orthodox Tradition. Volume XXIV, Number 3, Pages 41-43. Year?

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

User avatar
diakrisis
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu 3 March 2016 10:23 am
Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: GOC-K
Location: νοῦς

Re: The Position of the GOC in relation to other churches

Post by diakrisis »

Looks like that specific Orthodox Tradition was published in 2007.

Cf. An Unpleasant But Necessary Statement About Certain Misrepresentations of Historical Fact
by Bishop Auxentios of Etna and Portland with the editorial collaboration of Bishop Chrysostomos, Metropolitan emeritus of Etna

http://www.dep.church/downloads/Statement.pdf

“…And because iniquity shall abound, the love [of the Truth] of many shall grow cold.”—St. Matthew (24:12)

Post Reply