Shroud of Turin

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eish
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by eish »

Suaidan wrote: Tue 27 August 2024 12:10 pm

Depends on where on the "wrist" since that's more a regional designation than the actual wrist joint itself.

Father, I was referring to the wrist proper. The area between the radius and ulna even far from the wrist would also be a possible location, and does have some contested support in the limited archaeological evidence. It also would still fall under what in scriptural language would be the “hand,” but of course you know that.

The bloodstains on the shroud (in the general wrist area), like the supposedly incorrect bodily proportions, are not something I find definitive. The bloodstains would be located according to where the wound was for most of the time while there was blood seeping out. The hands in the image are, however, assumed to be in the exact same location which could have moved slightly either during transport for burial or while in the motion of getting up, which pop science ignores for obvious reasons. This also would account for incorrect proportions, as it is simply assumed that the body must be lying flat and the image projecting onto a flat sheet. If the body is moving, which it evidently is when the hand is making the motion for an episcopal blessing, then the torso and limbs are not necessarily parallel to the sheet nor at the same distance. Hence their proportions need not be the same in projection.

All told, these things might provide information that could be used to disprove a fake shroud, and are worth investigating, but the argument for authenticity is still enticing.

And a blessed feast to everyone!

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Unseen.Warfare
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by Unseen.Warfare »

Suaidan wrote: Tue 27 August 2024 12:10 pm
eish wrote: Tue 27 August 2024 11:58 am

I had a brain wave. (Rare, I know.) Crucifixion by nailing through the wrist strongly implies breaking the bones, which is scripturally unsound.

I'm getting myself ill by saying this but....

Depends on where on the "wrist" since that's more a regional designation than the actual wrist joint itself. If one nails upward from the convergence point of the radius and ulna and the nail exits at the wrist, the chance of bone-breaking is mitigated and the hands would have maximum "hold" for the rest of the body, which is also supported by the footrest.

Yep, don't feel well now

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I think Holy tradition holds the most weight when it comes to this question. The Holy Spirit plays a part in the painting of an Icon and Christ is never depicted nailed through the wrists. Ropes could have played a role. We have to trust the texts and holy tradition like Gi-Ming-Shien was saying about the Chinese Tradition.

Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom (Luke 12:32)

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Suaidan
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by Suaidan »

That's a good way to look at it

The problem is that the entire hand vs wrist argument in the West almost never even ENVISIONS a footrest, and assumes that the body weight is completely hanging off the nails. A footrest renders this argument pointless.

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Fr Joseph Suaidan (Suaiden, same guy)

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Unseen.Warfare
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by Unseen.Warfare »

Suaidan wrote: Wed 28 August 2024 1:47 pm

That's a good way to look at it

The problem is that the entire hand vs wrist argument in the West almost never even ENVISIONS a footrest, and assumes that the body weight is completely hanging off the nails. A footrest renders this argument pointless.

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The footrest is also symbolic of the destination of each thief. I think it would be a mistake to not consider the footrest at all.

Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom (Luke 12:32)

eish
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by eish »

Unseen.Warfare wrote: Wed 28 August 2024 1:41 pm

I think Holy tradition holds the most weight when it comes to this question. The Holy Spirit plays a part in the painting of an Icon and Christ is never depicted nailed through the wrists. Ropes could have played a role. We have to trust the texts and holy tradition like Gi-Ming-Shien was saying about the Chinese Tradition.

Realism is not absolute in icons. Were I to accept your argument, I would be compelled also to accept that St. John of Kronstadt was wrong to say that Christ has blue eyes contrary to iconographic norms. Or as Fr. Seraphim wrote in the letter above, “I don’t think such as point as the nails through the wrists and not through the palms can be criticized on this ground; there has been no actual tradition about the palms, only a general conception, which is not infallible.”

I still think the palms are a fine conclusion from the icons until proven otherwise. Furthermore, while I am not knowledgeable on early icons I imagine that a sufficient number of iconographers up to the time of St. Constantine may have seen Roman crucifixions in person, or the relics of those so martyred.

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Unseen.Warfare
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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by Unseen.Warfare »

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I agree with you. Gonna reread those letters again. I read them a few weeks ago and posted them here off memory because they relate with Fr. Alexei’s article. Do you know where Saint John Kronstadt got that from? Was it the letter from Pontus Pilate to Caesar? Paisios said he seen Christ in a monastery and this is the image he seen. Blue eyes.

https://iconandlight.wordpress.com/2018 ... unt-athos/

Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom (Luke 12:32)

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Re: Shroud of Turin

Post by SavaBeljovic »

I think with depictions in icons... There can be a lot of variances from history. Old Ethiopian icons tend to depict Christ with darker skin than say, Greek icons. But I don't know if this would be necessarily a claim that the Ethiopian Church is trying to claim our Lord was an Ethiopian... Artistic capabilities and limitations are to be considered.

More than anything, I mentioned the placement of nails more as a curiousity rather than a statement about what iconographic depiction should/should not depict. I even mentioned in my post that the San Damiano Cross has a pre-schism prototype it was based off of.

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