Hey, excuse my red face... my scarf is on too tight.

[joasia]

As in reference to a previous post...I seem to reflect a strict mentality on how I see things. Yes, it is due to the fact that I am a convert, which some here are, but I seem to take it too seriously (so I'm told).

I learnt about Orthodoxy, first from reading the writings of saints. Pure Orthodox knowledge,as it should be, not what cradles live. THEN I got to see how the cradle Orthodox believe

Well, I was quite perturbed by the fact that they seem very loose in their beliefs in Orthodoxy. I am not referring to personal sins...just their ecumenical beliefs and the fact that I know of some who go to Holy Communion WITHOUT confession and the women wear pants and they can't follow the same calendar and they don't fast(especially for the Great Lent)...to mention a few. In my eyes, they have reverted to the catholic ways(including pews), which I left behind(and never will return).

I believe that it's one thing to accept that people are all on their own paths and another to accept what Orthodox people say(that doesn't support the Orthodox tradition).

Isn't it a responsiblity of the cradle Orthodox to set a good example? After all, God made you born in the True Faith. I've seen some pretty bad examples in the passed few years and that's why I have a sarcastic attitude(towards the people, not the faith). And perhaps, the cradle Orthodox should look into it more deeply, before critisizing and blasting a comment and consider that their behaviour is effecting the converts' view of their integrity of being born into the Faith. That is if they have a conscience. But, I've also seen converts who have no spiritual basis. I think, they're just passing through a fase.

So really, it is how we see each other on this board. If anyone cares.

The other converts, I can understand...some of them are still messed up, but the cradles....you should know better. You will only be more confusing to those who are seeking.

You may take this as an offense, but consider the fact that you have been given a great blessing to be born into the Faith and you have a responsibility to show others the way, if you decide to talk about Orthodoxy(which is the goal of this chatboard). But, if you talk about it, then show them the the Truth. It is your heritage...pass it on.

That is all I wanted to say. If you all disagree, then I will not continue.

In Christ,

Joasia

[Liudmilla]

Sooo....You would judge all cradles, based on the actions of a few?
Hmmm....not good.

Just as there are a wide variety of converts, so there are a wide variety of cradles. Some too "loose" and others too "zealous", but far more somewhere in the middle. You look at outward displays and fail to note the inward struggle. You judge the outward and do not know the actions and struggles behind closed doors. You see "looseness" in the rules, but you do not know what if any prayer rules they follow in the privacy of their bedrooms or their hearts for that matter. Each to the measure they are able to give, take or perform. It is for God to judge the effort, not for you to judge the lack of it.

The problem is that so many times converts expect cradles to be perfection...a role model....but we are on that same rocky road that you stepped onto when you became Orthodox, we've just been there longer. The actual truth is that cradles influence converts about as much as converts influence cradles. It's a two way street. You want examples? God gave you examples to follow, don't look to us cradles, we're struggling too.

Don't confuse faith with the rituals of religion. Your faith is what is between you and God. Religion is the rules set by man to help you hopefully achieve perfection, if it is so ordained.

Milla

[Mykael]

I feel your pain Joasia I struggle with this as well. I am a convert myself.

Here is a link to some thoughts from Blessed Hieromonk Serephim Rose I found helpful. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/fsr_88.aspx

In Christ
lowly Mykael

[Justin Kissel]

Well, I was quite perturbed by the fact that they seem very loose in their beliefs in Orthodoxy. I am not referring to personal sins...just their ecumenical beliefs and the fact that I know of some who go to Holy Communion WITHOUT confession and the women wear pants and they can't follow the same calendar and they don't fast(especially for the Great Lent)...

These all seem to be issues between the people in question, their spiritual father, and God. I don't think that it's our business, cradle or convert, to worry about these things in others. When I am tempted by a girl in a short skirt in front of me, for example, that should tell me enough about my own sinfulness to keep me from worrying about any possible sinfulness on her part. When one has a log in their eye, they can't very clearly see specks in the eyes of others. Someone might respond, "yes, but she still shouldn't be wearing the skirt!" Maybe not. But that's for a priest (or someone else given authority) to tell her, and not my judgment to make. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov talked about this kind of judging in his book The Arena, which I wish I had a copy of so I could quote.

[Aristokles]

Well said, Justin Kissel.
I might add that this cradle-convert thing is over-blown. By making a conscious adult decision to stay in the Church we cradles are perpetual converts too.

Demetri

[TomS]

Josaia, my friend.

You can believe anything you want - at any degree of passion that you want. Just stop judging those who do not believe or follow the same path as you do. Don't assume that your way is the only way or the absoultely correct way. That is pride and will harden your heart.

I am the first to admit that I am not the best Orthodox in the world. I have huge doubts about many, many things. I was taught by my parents to question everything, to not accept something as the Truth just because someone in authority says it is. Education wise, one again, I was taught to dig for the truth. To not accept something simply because it is written in a book. This is my cross to bear. And yet, I am still here - to the chagrin of many -- I am still searching.

[Schultz]

These all seem to be issues between the people in question, their spiritual father, and God. I don't think that it's our business, cradle or convert, to worry about these things in others. When I am tempted by a girl in a short skirt in front of me, for example, that should tell me enough about my own sinfulness to keep me from worrying about any possible sinfulness on her part. When one has a log in their eye, they can't very clearly see specks in the eyes of others. Someone might respond, "yes, but she still shouldn't be wearing the skirt!" Maybe not. But that's for a priest (or someone else given authority) to tell her, and not my judgment to make. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov talked about this kind of judging in his book The Arena, which I wish I had a copy of so I could quote.

Very well said, brother Justin! And thank you for the book reccomendation. Who publishes it?