Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

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Maria
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Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

Post by Maria »

St. Xenia of St. Petersburg recounted a vision she had of her late husband leaving Hell and being transported into Heaven. How can this happen, as there is a tremendous gulf between Hell and Heaven according to the Gospel parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus told by Christ?

On the one hand, many Orthodox Christians and monastics have come back from the dead and have warned Orthodox Christians to be sober and vigilant as immediately following their death, their entire lives were revealed, and all their sins were exposed. The Toll House is such an allegory of this aerial or partial judgment that will happen immediately after death until the time of the Great Judgment by Christ at His Second Coming. Unrepented and unconfessed sins will consign a soul to Hell, as no sin is minor. Once in Hell, that soul's salvation will be left to the Mercy of God. Yet God does listen to the prayers of faithful Orthodox Christians as He did to St. Xenia, whose husband died in an drunken brawl. This is why Orthodox Christians should at least pray the entire Psalter for each deceased parishioner upon learning of their falling asleep in the Lord. It is also not surprising that True Orthodox are instructed to avoid joking and dissipative behaviors as they heed the words of St. Peter to be sober and watchful for the Devil roams about the world seeking whom he may devour.

There have been several threads that have recently discussed Toll Houses, in particular:

On the other hand, many Roman Catholics have the mistaken belief that if they live nominal Christian lives, and by the grace of God squeak into Purgatory, then they will be "safe" and will escape Hell even though by fire. Yet, their own belief in "Our Lady of Fatima" contradicts this false confidence as they also believe that Holy Mary taught them that many souls are now suffering in Hell-fire. It is also interesting that one of the prayers that is prayed after each decade of the Rosary and that is attributed to Our Lady of Fatima does not mention Purgatory at all. In fact, this prayer sounds quite Orthodox:

  • O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

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Re: Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

Post by jgress »

Fr Steven Allen here explains the distinction between the Orthodox teaching on the soul after death and the Catholic/Papist doctrine of Purgatory:

http://www.saint-spyridon.com/note5.htm

Isn’t this the same as the Roman Catholic teaching about “Purgatory”?

No, it is not, in at least two ways that are essential and significant:

The Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory is that the departed sinners are cleansed of their sins by their own temporary sufferings in a temporal, cleansing fire after death. In the Orthodox teaching, suffering after death cannot help the departed soul – the time for cleansing sufferings is THIS LIFE, not the next. The departed soul CANNOT HELP ITSELF – only the prayers and alms of those still in this world, that is, the loving sacrifices of members of the CHURCH ON EARTH, can help!

The teaching on Purgatory is part and parcel of a rationalistic, systematized teaching on merits and indulgences which is foreign to the sweet and mysterious evangelical spirit of Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy, how prayer and sacrifice help the dead is a profound mystery of God’s mercy to man and the power of man’s love for his fellow man, not a clear-cut system of God’s justice and man’s merits.

I would qualify the statement that "no sin is minor". There is in fact a distinction between sins that are spiritually deadly and sins that are "not unto death", which we know from 1 John 5:16, but the significance of the distinction is treated differently among the different Fathers (see discussion in the Exomologetarion by St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain). I think you're right that, as far as the layman is concerned, what matters is that we repent and confess all the sins of which we are conscious. Fr Photios Cooper had a nice post on this in an earlier thread: the distinction between "serious" and "trivial" sins is one for the spiritual father to make, not one for the penitent, who instead should confess all his sins for the confessor to consider.

It can be confusing and disorienting for beginners in Orthodoxy when, for example, they see cradle Orthodox apparently committing sins without shame or censure, e.g. you may see them smoking, or not keeping the fasts. I've seen people light up cigarettes right outside church, or I've seen people come to a priest's house during a fast, bringing non-fasting food. It can seem like, whatever our spiritual books say, there are some sins which are OK to commit, though you never are told which ones are OK and which ones are not. I have also heard older and experienced laymen talk about the distinction between mortal and forgivable sins, e.g. I was at a church event where clergy were present but they were playing Greek pop music and dancing, which scandalized me, and an older parishioner told me that "we're only human so we're forgiven for smaller sins".

I think the key word is "experienced": if you are a beginner in Orthodoxy you should not decide for yourself which sins you can "get away with" and which ones you need to avoid. Confess everything and ask your spiritual father for advice. Even if it seems trivial, ask. Don't be afraid to admit when you have trouble avoiding a sin or keeping some commandment of the Church. Also, if you see other Orthodox sinning, don't mind or judge them and remember that you don't know about their spiritual lives, what internal struggles they are going through or what kind of dispensations they have from their spiritual fathers.

At the same time, we should avoid legalistic scruples. For example, when I first went to confession I brought a huge written list of my sins that I was going to read from, but my confessor told me not to read from the list, since the purpose of confession is to unburden the conscience, for which we don't need a written list. He said writing them down is fine during preparation for confession, but reading off a list can in fact be a way to avoid opening our conscience to God. It is, of course, possible to forget to confess a sin, but then you should confess it when you remember it the next time you confess. Obviously, the more often you confess the more opportunities you have to remember those sins. According to some sources, you will be held accountable for sins you forget to confess, but I don't think this is a license to despair: simply confess often and pray to be reminded of your sins, and you WILL remember them.

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Re: Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

Post by Hieromonk Enoch »

Toll-houses really only are supposed to cover the period immediately after death, the first 40 days, I think. The issue in St. Xenia vision has to do with the place one is assigned after this, or as a result of the Particular Judgment.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

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Re: Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

Post by Hieromonk Enoch »

In Met. Macarius' of Moscow chapter on this in his Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, he presents all the Scriptural and Patristic evidence, answer some questions, and is able to explain the question of Toll-houses. It seems that his explanation does a lot more in furthering belief than Fr. Seraphim's (though I like the departed Fr. Seraphim's writings) sometime confusing writings.

Jonathan's reference to Fr. Steven's writings provides good information. There are the two homilies by St. Mark of Ephesus on this, as well as the 18th (?) Decree by the Synod of Jerusalem (though, this decree in its final published form that we have, was a little modified to remove things that were seen to be Roman Catholic distinctives, while the substance was preserved).

I suppose this can seem jaring, and is to many. Many might wonder, "So, if I don't bring forth works worthy of repentance and/or don't pass through all the toll-houses, I'll be consigned to Hades until the prayers of the Church beseeching the Divine Compassion are able to liberate me to Paradise? This seems frightening! Why could this not even happen to the Rich Man!?"

First, the Rich Man did not die with repentance but having not brought works fruits of repentance (which St. Mark and other define as fastings, vigils, alms, etc). He died in his sinfulness with no repentance. Secondly, it seems even in the Rich Man's case he still was behaving like he was somehow in charge, even asking Abraham to order Lazarus to be the messenger. Third, his concern was also with the pain there, which is legitimate, but, he seemed little or no concerned with the attitude that brought him there, and his separation from God. True, the Rich Man was concerned for his brethren, which is why he wanted Lazarus to help, but, that seemed to be something that wasn't seen in his favour by the Lord.

I'm sure everyone here has heard the old Russian story of the woman in hell and the onion.

In the early Church for some centuries, Confession was not private as we see today. There was a public function to it, either the class of Penitents made their confession to the Bishop, or to an appointed representative. They were then given all those long penances we see in the Pedalion. They were expected to fulfill them, and to stand in the Narthex, and in some places and cases, they were expected to stand outside the Narthex in the Penitents Porch, kneeling and begging the prayers of those entering. After their penance was completed, they would be re-admitted from their time of excommunication, and the Prayer of Absolution was then read over them by the Bishop or the Presbyter appointed so to do. Needless to say, this experience, if embraced piously and sincerely, was, very humbling and humiliating (since we need humility to drive off pride!), and was carthartic in its effects. This old penitential system, combined with the period in which the Church lived for a few centuries (under persecution) was enough, by God's Grace, to offer to anyone who followed such to be in a much different state than we are today.

However, this system, especially after the end of Persecution and the opening up of the Church to a "wider audience" led to many scandles. The historian Socrates recounts a period in Constantinople in which they seemed to be in a transition phase between Public/Private Confession. A woman confessed to having committed adultery with a deacon, and confessed it to a priest. The matter became open knowledge. There was a great scandal. Pat. Nektarius decreed that there would be no more confession in the city. It was not a very good time. However, the solution was eventually given (by monastic influence) by the introduction of private confession, ostensibly, with the Priest having the obligation to keep secrecy. While we may like Private Confession a lot better, since, we are only humbled and humiliated before our spiritual father, we do necessarily endure all that was once entailed and endured. One need only read St. Ambrose' work on this matter "De Penitentia" to understand this.

Confessor today more often then not avoid giving many of the 'harsh' Penances found in exomological manuals (unless, of course, you are dealing with subjects like murder, etc, or subjects of out and open public knowledge).

Let us ask ourselves if after we repent, go to confession and receive forgiveness, do we really show forth fruits of repentance in our life. Most of us probably can think of times in which we don't, or later forget about the whole situation and seem to move on without regard for the scars, though the wound is healed, the mark seems to be there, though it fades with time.

The concept of the 'time' we might spend in Hades seems frightening, but, only we don't realize that we have the sure hope of deliverance by God's Mercy. They are sometimes call the Prison-houses of hell (at least in some catechisms). We don't have to undergo tormenting of purgatorial fire and until our temporal guilt is fulfilled and/or the treasure of merits is given in aiding us. We do find more and more relief from the things done for the departed, the Liturgies for the dead, memorial services, prayers, good works, lighting candles, etc, etc.

At the risk of undoing some of what was said above, it must always be kept in mind that such things seen in the world beyond the grave are ultimately expressed to us in symbols, metaphors, analogies, figures, though they are real. We can read the Martyrdom of St. Perpetua and see an example of someone being moved from Hades into Paradise (though the case mentioned there is even more extreme in circumstances and persons than those mentioned above).

All the things above were terribly disconcerting to me, or perplexing I should say, when I first was taught them and then read the sources. It is one things to hear some dryly state that "this is Roman Catholic teaching!", but, it is quite another to explain why no Orthodox thought so for all these centuries.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

“We cannot destroy the Ecclesiastical Canons, who are defenders and keepers of the Canons, not their transgressors.” (Pope St. Martin the Confessor)

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Re: Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

Post by Lydia »

I don't recall the story of the Russian woman and the onion. Could you tell it, please?

I have been Orthodox my entire life, and I was never taught a word about toll-houses. Certainly, judgment by Our Lord and Saviour, but not by demons.

I can see how toll-houses can be instructive in repentance, but I have also seen this teaching cause great fear and despair in some people.

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Re: Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

Post by joasia »

Lydia wrote:

I don't recall the story of the Russian woman and the onion. Could you tell it, please?

I have been Orthodox my entire life, and I was never taught a word about toll-houses. Certainly, judgment by Our Lord and Saviour, but not by demons.

I can see how toll-houses can be instructive in repentance, but I have also seen this teaching cause great fear and despair in some people.

It's a story by Dostoevsky. There once was a woman who was very selfish. When she died she went to Hades (Hell is the actual term for where people will go at the Last Judgement). But, her Guardian Angel had sympathy for her and asked God to give her a chance. The Angel reminded God that she had once given an onion to a beggar. So God allowed the Angel to descend to Hades with an onion to pull her out. She held on and was being lifted up and the other souls saw this and grabbed her legs in order to be lifted out too. But, the women tried to kicked them off and said: This is MY onion. It's MINE! At that moment the onion rotted and the women and the other souls fell back into their damnation.

I have the Jordanville prayer book, in English and in the Canon to the Guardian Angel, in the last prayer, it says: ...defend me from their net, when I shall pass through the aerial tollhouses, in order that, being guarded by thee, I may attain the desired paradise....

But, I also have the Old Rite prayer book and it doesn't mention tollhouses.

Fr. Seraphim Rose wrote about it and mentioned some saints who have witnessed it.

The demons don't judge...they accuse. And when we face our Judge, we have accusers, don't we? They are there ready to snatch us away from God. But, Jesus Christ is the Judge. And by the prayers of the Theotokos, we can be redeemed despite our sinful state.

There's also the true account of the young Russian man who experienced death.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/unbelievable.aspx

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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Re: Toll-Houses vs Purgatory; Vision of St. Xenia

Post by Jean-Serge »

Maria wrote:

St. Xenia of St. Petersburg recounted a vision she had of her late husband leaving Hell and being transported into Heaven. How can this happen, as there is a tremendous gulf between Hell and Heaven according to the Gospel parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus told by Christ?

Because the particular judgment is not definitive. There is still hope. Ony hte last judgment is definitive. Another example is the case of the Emperor Trajan that went to paradise thanks to the prayers of Saint Gregor the Great (I think).

The terminology in English, Spanish, French is not often clear because I see the words hell, enfer, infierno, and it is not clear which Greek word in the liturgical text they are supposed to translate. I still wonder which are the original Greek words used in the original texts and the meaning of them.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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