The divorce of orthopraxy from daily life

[Nektarios14]

I am taking this from the What do contempary Orthodox believe, but though it meirts it's own thread:

It shows how the hereseys have crept in to the churches that adapted or were forced under the Papal Calendar such as modernism, sergeism and ecumenism. And how even traditionalists in communion with these hgeretics have started to take up traits of the heretics.

I think the real reason there are problems in the mainline Orthodox Churches isn't the calendar or the other externals. The externals are only designed to help and guide the internal and it is wrong to get too caught up in the externals (becoming far more legalistic than the pharisees ever were). I feel that all the problems of ecumenism and modernism came to the church via loss of the ascetical life among the laity. I know I don't fast much at all, don't keep vigiliant in prayer etc. But the people that do no matter their jurisdiction tend to overlook the minor issues seperating new and old calendar, the ROCOR and "World Orthodocy" etc, and look to who is truly in Christ. I am very blest to live so close to Saint Anthony's Monastery in AZ because I can see this first hand. Saint John of San Francisco is one of the most beloved saints there...and the ROCOR is not thought to be schismatic. Yes St. Anthony's follows the new calendar, but since they are living orthopraxis to the fullest possible degree it doesn't matter. I think it is sad to see Orthodoxy reduced to a matter of picking the most traditional jurisdiction and getting caught up in the legalistic aspect of it all. Rather than forming the super-true genuine true believer church of whereever wouldn't it make sense to focus more on cultivating Orthodoxy in the heart? Just my two cents on the matter...

[Logos]

Nektarios, I think you may be on to something that I have never really thought about.

[Justin2]

How often do you get to visit St. Anthony's, Nektarios? I'm going on a pilgrimage there, from June 27th to July 3rd, if you're not busy that weekend.

[Nektarios14]

How often do you get to visit St. Anthony's, Nektarios? I'm going on a pilgrimage there, from June 27th to July 3rd, if you're not busy that weekend.

I was just there Thursday through Saturday this week! I try to get out once a month or for really big feasts. There will probably be a vigil for the feast of Saints Peter and Paul...hmmm I'll try to get out there.

[Arsenios]

...I think the real reason there are problems in the mainline Orthodox Churches isn't the calendar or the other externals. The externals are only designed to help and guide the internal and it is wrong to get too caught up in the externals ...I feel that all the problems of ecumenism and modernism came to the church via loss of the ascetical life among the laity...

I think you are on to something here! It's not that "externals" are unimportant, but you said it perfectly nwhen you said that it is what is deeper that is most important. If we get the deeper, inward stuff right, the "external" stuff, the outward manifestations or actions, will come naturally. Our tradition is a lived tradition and that is how it is spread to each generation. Spread somewhat through books and writings, yes. But it is only by living out the truths of God that we really understand the divinely given tradition of the Church. Two of the sayings of Abba Arsenius speak about this:

"Someone said to blessed Arsenius, 'How is it that we, with all our education and our wide knowledge get no-where, while these Egyptian peasants acquire so many virtues?' Abba Arsenius said to him, 'We indeed get nothing from our secular education, but these Egyptian peasants acquire the virtues by hard work.'" - The Sayings of the Desert Fathers, Arsenius, 5

"One day Abba Arsenius consulted an old Egyptian monk about his own thoughts. Someone noticed this and said to him, 'Abba Arsenius, how is it that you with such a good Latin and Greek education, ask this peasant about your thoughts?' He replied, 'I have indeed been taught Latin and Greek, but I do not know even the alphabet of this peasant.'" - The Sayings of the Desert Fathers, Arsenius, 6

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Nektarios,

Your above post is very stereotypical and full of colloquialisms, which is all I have ever read against "traditionalists".

You said: "Rather than forming the super-true genuine true believer church of whereever wouldn't it make sense to focus more on cultivating Orthodoxy in the heart?"

Before making such a toungue-in-cheek statement, it would be far more credible if you first demonstrated that the average "tradtionalist" is not "cultivating Orthodoxy in the heart".

Once you reduce Holy Tradition to "Externals", you will be forever a mininalist. A person who is "cultivating Orthodoxy in the heart" is striving to do the will of God in every way. Keeping the festal calendar that God created over centuries is far better than scrapping it because the Grand puh-ba Mason in Constandtinople said so. So even if they wish to persecute us, even MURDERING our priests, we chose to follow Holy Tradition. Reducing this to some nebulous idea of an "external" is exacly what the demons want, because they will destroy everything, even if its peice by peice. So who is the Pharisee, the one who does the will of the Lord, or the one who does the will of men?

Those new-calendarists who are striving for "cultivating Orthodoxy in the heart" such as the monks in Arizona, are like the shipwrecked who have climbed to the highest part of the ship which hasn't slipped below water yet. These are the ones who are more likely to someday be saved by the Ark of Christs Church. But make no mistake, their ship is sinking.

And the new-calendarists who are so gleefully a part of new-calendarism and who don't care to be involved with such pesky things, are the piano players in the main dining hall, who are oblivious to the fact that their ship is sinking and continue to play even as the water laps up against their feet.

Your line of thinking is exactly as the Protestants think: "A religion of externals is attractive to the unrenewed heart. The pomp and ceremony of the Catholic worship has a seductive, bewitching power, by which many are deceived; and they come to look upon the Roman Church as the very gate of heaven. None but those who have planted their feet firmly upon the foundation of truth, and whose hearts are renewed by the Spirit of God, are proof against her influence. Thousands who have not an experimental knowledge of Christ will be led to accept the forms of godliness without the power. Such a religion is just what the multitudes desire."

http://www.egwestate.andrews.edu/gc/gc35.html

[Justin Kissel]

Different people seem to be reading into Nektarios's post different things (which is normal for us all, I suppose life for us sinners is, unfortunately, usually a matter of eisegesis) Certainly I don't agree with the statement that St. Anthony's living correctly means that the calendar issue doesn't matter. On the other hand, I think I agree with the sentiment of what Nektarios was trying to say: we need to start with our focus on the heart and then work our way out, so to speak, and get the practices themselves right. It's more important that I have true repentance in my heart, for instance, than making sure that I do prostrations "properly". Indeed, every "small thing," every "Lord have mercy" (even when you do 40 of them) is a very important thing--it's a divinely given, sanctifying thing that can be done only because of God's uncreated grace shining on us and in us. Yet, we can't focus on "making each 'Lord have mercy' matter, but we must begin with our focus inward... making the Lord Himself be the most important thing to us, and realising our own sinfulness and inadequacy... then, the outward actions will follow naturally.