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Moronikos
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Post by Moronikos »

Paradosis,

Let's let Seraphim speak/write for himself.

If the non-Julian calendar is not heretical, then what justifies a schism? If one group walls itself off from another over a non-heretical issue, who is the schismatic?

As for the joke, yes, it is about traditionalists--I would even rather use a made-up word like: traditionalista. But there is a difference between one who attempts to follow the tradition, and one who is a traditionalist as Fr. Seraphim (Holland) wrote during the last week of December. Or was it the second week? (25 - 13 = 12) :D

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Moronikos,

So are you saying all non-Christians will burn in Hell?

I'm saying that there is no salvation apart from Christ, and His Church. Do you know of any other way of salvation, any other Name under heaven by which men must be saved?

Are you saying all non-Orthodox Christians will burn in Hell?

By their confession and decision, are they members of the Orthodox Church?

Are you saying Orthodox on the non-Julian calendar will burn in Hell? (You believe, don't you, that the new calendar is a heresy?)

Read the Patriarchal and Synodical Encyclical (1920) of the EP on this for yourself. Particularly note zingers like the following...

Our own church holds that rapprochement between the various Christian Churches and fellowship between them is not excluded by the doctrinal differences which exist between them.

or

Secondly, that above all love should be rekindled and strengthened among the churches, so that they should no more consider one another as strangers and foreigners, but as relatives, and as being a part of the household of Christ and "fellow heirs, members of the same body and partakers of the promise of God in Christ" (Eph. 3. 6).

This document is thoroughly imbued with ecclessiological errors, the very "branch theorism" which ROCOR would eventually anathematize, after much labouring (ultimatly, in vain) to bring back the budding ecumenists to their senses.

Besides the ecclessiological errors themselves (a blanket recognition of heresies and schisms as constituting parts of the Church of Christ), there is a list of propositions for furthering this "ecumenism" (an abuse of a perfectly good term, borrowed from similar Protestant efforts earlier in the 20th century - strictly speaking, "ecumenical" refers to those with the same faith in the same Church, not heresies). The first is the following...

a. By the acceptance of a uniform calendar for the celebration of the great Christian feasts at the same time by all the churches.

This was put into effect by the EP shortly thereafter. Clearly then, the new calendar is a means to facilitating the agenda outlined by the Patriarchal Encyclical I've put forward for your inspection.

However, this is not the whole of the story. Beside the heretical motive behind this change, there are existing canonical problems with this change. Besides the manner in which it was carried out (at first, the EP, Greek State Church, and Romanians adopting the new calendar, thus rending assunder the liturgical/festal unity of the Orthodox Church, which is in contravention of the Council of Nicea - three local Churches, taking it upon themselves to change the universal, ecumenical calendar of the Church, which had been formulated by the consent and authority of the entire Orthodox Church), there is a further, even less ambiguous problem - the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar by Orthodox Churches has been anathematized/forbidden on many occassions.

The Sigillion of the Council in Constantinople in 1583

Anathematizing false beliefs about the Dogma of the Procession of the Holy Spirit, Holy Communion, unleavened bread, the judgment, Purgatory, the heretical Pope, the Paschalia, and the New Calendar Innovation.

To all the genuine Christian children of the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ of the East in Trigovyst and in all places, be grace and peace and mercy from Almighty God.

Not a little distress took possession of that Ark of old, when, storm-tossed, it was borne upon the waters; and if the Lord God, remembering Noe, had not in His good will calmed the water, there would have been no hope of salvation in it. In a like manner with the new Ark of our Church, the heretics have raised up a relentless war against us, and we have deemed it well to leave behind the present tome against them so that with the things written in it you may be able more surely to defend your Orthodoxy. But in order that the document may not be burdensome to simpler people, we have decided to set forth the entire subject to you in simple speech as follows:

From old Rome have come certain persons who learned there to think like Latins; and the bad thing is that from being Byzantines (that is, Greeks) born and bred in our own parts, they not only have changed their faith, but they also battle the Orthodox and true dogmas of the Eastern church which Christ Himself delivered to us. Whereupon, having cut them off as rotten members, we order:

1) Whosoever does not confess with heart and mouth that he is a child of the Eastern Church baptized in an Orthodox manner, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the father, essentially and hypostatically, as Christ says in the Gospel, although He proceeds from Father and Son in time, let such a one be out of our Church and let him be anathematized.

II) Whosoever does not confess that in the Mystery of Holy communion laymen should commune from two kinds, both of the precious Body and Blood, but says that it is enough to receive only the Body, for the Blood is also there, even though Christ has spoken and has given each one separately, and they do not keep it, let such be anathematized.

III) Whosoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Last Supper used unleavened bread as do the Hebrews and not leavened bread, that is, raised bread, let him be far from us and under the anathema as one who thinks like a Jew and as one who introduces the doctrines of Appolinarios and of the Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be anathematized a second time.

IV) Whosoever says that when our Christ and God comes to judge He does not come to judge the souls together with the bodies, but comes in order to decide only for the body, anathema to him.

V) Whosoever says that when they die the souls of the Christians who repented in this life but did not do their penance go to Purgatory - which is a Greek myth - where fire and torment purify them, and they think that there is no eternal torment, as did Origen, and give cause by this to sin freely, let such a one have the anathema.

VI) Whosoever says that the Pope is head of the Church and not Christ, and that he has authority to admit into Paradise with his letters, and can forgive as many sins as will be committed by one who with money received an indulgence from him, let such a one have the anathema.

VII) Whosoever does not follow the customs of the Church which the seven Holy Ecumenical Councils have decreed, and the Holy Pascha and calendar which they enacted well for us to follow, but wants to follow the newly-invented Paschalion [method of fixing the date of Pascha] and the new calendar of the atheist astronomers of the Pope; and opposing them, wishes to overthrow and destroy the doctrines and customs of the Church which we have inherited from our Fathers, let any such have the anathema and let him be outside of the Church and the Assembly of the Faithful.

VIII) We exhort all pious and Orthodox Christians: remain in those things which you learned and in which you were born and bred, and when the times and circumstances call for it, shed your very blood in order both to keep the Faith given us by our Fathers and to keep your confession. Beware of such people and take care, that our Lord Jesus Christ help you. May the blessing of our humility be with you all. Amen.

The 1583rd year from the birth of the God-man, Indiction 12, November 20th.

Jeremias, of Constantinople Sylvester, of Alexandria Sophronios, of Jerusalem (and the rest of the Bishops of the Synod who were present)

(the above is particularly interesting, for it also anathematizes all sorts of things which have now been conceeded by the ecumenists in their varying "conferences" and "agreed statements")

and

The Second Sigillion (1756) against the Papal Calendar

Kirill, by the Grace of God Archbishop of Constantinople - New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch

Due to new abominations, created by papists in regard to the question of changing our Pascha and Calendar.

Removal from the Church

The most honorable clerics of our Great Church of Christ, other most God-fearing Hierarchs and most saintly hieromonks, singers in churches of our city, followers of Paul, who says: "If someone would annunciate contrary to what we annunciated to you, even that be an angel from heavens, anathema on him"; if he is a hierarch or a faithful one, to be removed from God, dammed, and after death not to rot but to dwell in eternal torment. Let stone and iron scatter and decay - they never and by no means. Let them inherit Giza's leprosy and Judas's hanging; let them dwell on earth like Cain, moaning and shivering; and let the wrath of God be on their heads and their share be with the traitor Judas and god-fighting Judeans; let the earth open and swallow them, like once Dathan and Abiron; let the Angel of God chase them with a sward in all the days of their lives, and let them succumb to all the damnations of the Patriarch and the Synod under the eternal removal and in torment of eternal fire.

Amen.

At the very least (since all of these documents were endorsed by the EP), the EP's own anathema fell upon it's own head - though the truth of the matter is, these anathemas (and there are more similar condemnations and prohibitions than these two - see a list here for further details) were accepted at a "Pan-Orthodox"/ecumenical level.

It was on this basis that many in the Greek and Romanian Churches withdrew from fellowship with the new calendarists and condemned them as schismatics (which was their right to do, considering they represented the canonical "part" of the Greek and Romanian Churches.)

It took much longer for the calendar question (and it's consequence) to be evaluated outside of the lands where this was a more immediate question. For example, it would be the substance of ecumenism itself (with the calendar question and the canonical issues involved there being viewed as a secondary, if still important, matter) which would come to cause grief with those in local Churches which never adopted the calendar change (such as the ROCOR.)

I believe, by the judgement of the continuing Greek and Romanian Orthodox Churches ("Old Calendarists"), and by the later Russian Orthodox Church's appraisal of the ecumenist phenomenon as a heresy, the so called "official" local Churches have in fact defected from the canonical Orthodox Church, on the grounds both of schism and heresy. This is an understanding which has only continued to bear itself out in fact (1965 being a pivotal year for the Russians when Patriarch Athenagoras "lifted" the anathemas against Papism and said/did all sorts of anti-canonical/heretical things, but also 1991 when the Antiochians announced their de-facto communion with the Monophysites.)

Not recognized then, as parts of the Orthodox Church, their "fate" is that of other schismatics/heretics.

If the non-Julian calendar is not heretical, then what justifies a schism? If one group walls itself off from another over a non-heretical issue, who is the schismatic?

As previously illustrated, there is both a real canonical question (both the previous anathemas against the adoption of the Gregorian calendar, and the anti-canonical way the EP, Greece, and Romania instituted their "reform"), and the doctrinal question of why this change was suggested/instituted in the first place (which clearly is a question of heresy.)

In light of all of this, it is the EP and associated bodies who are "schismatics"; they have sundered the unity of historically Orthodox peoples, and no one else.

Seraphim

Moronikos
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Post by Moronikos »

"Yes" or "no" answers to the questions would be fine. The lengthy response sounds like a Jesuit on a witness stand. After all the words, I can't tell whether you said yes or no.

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Seraphim Reeves
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Further thoughts on "burning in hell"

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Moronikos,

The entire way you phrased your pressing "burning in hell" questions strikes me as inappropriate. Not because you ask the questions, so much as how they're phrased.

All human beings, with the entirity of creation itself, have the same destiny - they're going to face the Dread Judgement of God, at which He will seperate the "sheep" from the "goats."

However, such a judgement is a matter of discrimination on His part, judging men for what they ontologically are. It is not as the Latins falsely teach, a sentence imposed upon the good and the bad, in so far as they did not "upset" or "offend" God. This is to say, those who are seperated from the blessed, are not going to be subjected to a fate other than the only one possible for them; it is not as if "God were more forgiving" or "willing to overlook more" they could somehow enjoy a better state (as if to say "you had your chance to be sorry before - too late buster!")

We are born into this world into a condition which is in fact "unnatural" (though it's universality and predominance in human experience has given many, many people, ignorant of our origins, the impression that this is the "natural" state of things), or "contranatural" (against nature.) Mortality was not part of God's design for us, not what He wanted for mankind (or the creation which men were set over to tend and rule.) Mortality begets sin - were we not mortal, we would not flee from our brothers, or flee from God. This is why it requires great moral heroism, for us to put the lesser goods our dying flesh insist are necessary for our survival aside, and see the truth of our existance and destiny; the everlasting goods of God, which are what we are truly needful of (and in our condition, often call for the putting aside of lesser, "perceived" goods.)

The only salvation from this condition is Christ - the only place given to mankind to work out this salvation, and receive the necessary weapons to wage this interior combat, is in His Orthodox Church. Being the body of Christ, it is there we find His Priesthood, His Oblation for sins, and the bridge/ladder which reaches up past the wicked powers of this age and to the blessedness of God.

Should we not prepare for this coming Day, it will catch us ill-equiped. Simply put, fleshly-minded men (and that is all the world teaches us, that is all, unasisted, we will ever know or assimilate into our hears) cannot stand the Glory of the Thrice Holy God. Yet it is His will that one day, for the sake of those who love Him, and to finally put an end to the age of wickedness and the begetting of wickedness, that this Glory will be revealed. The "veil will be removed" and all, good and bad, will see, unambiguously, the awesome glory of the Lord.

Simply put, this will be "hell" for those who cannot stand such. They will not assimilate it. It will be misery. They will be seperated from the blessed, precisely so that Heaven will not become Hell by their presence.

When the Church cuts off those who have perverted the faith, or do violence to charity and the good order of the faithful, it does so for similar reasons - to protect those who remain in the fold unperverted (thus not robbed of the guidance which can lead to salvation), and as an admonishment to those who were already perishing by their lies before they were even expelled. It is better they be expelled now, while they still have the ability to repent, than be expelled on the Last Day, permanently.

"But what of those who are ignorant of the crimes of the heresiarchs and instigators of schism?" some may ask, whether we're talking about those in the ecumenist "Orthodox" churches, the Roman Catholics, the Protestants, Jews, Pagans, etc. All that can be done in regard to these, is work diligently for their inclusion into the flock, and otherwise trust them to the love and mercy of God, Who we know loves these people more than their own mothers do. What God may do in their regard, we cannot say. This is something hidden in God, and it is presumptuous to pretend we can know in such matters what God does not in fact choose to reveal to us. As St.John of Damascus taught...

As knowing all things, therefore, and providing for what is profitable for each, He revealed that which it was to our profit to know; but what we were unable to bear He kept secret. With these things let us be satisfied, and let us abide by them, not removing everlasting boundaries, nor overpassing the divine tradition. (St.John of Damascus, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, book I, chapter I)

Seraphim

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Moronikos,

"Yes" or "no" answers to the questions would be fine. The lengthy response sounds like a Jesuit on a witness stand. After all the words, I can't tell whether you said yes or no.

Sorry, I confused you for someone who wants to understand the issues at hand.

As for "yes" or "no", I cannot answer this; they're not my servants, I cannot judge them, or anyone.

However, what I can say unambiguously, is that there is no salvation, none outside of the Orthodox Church. This is a dogmatic certainty, repeated so many times in Holy Scripture, and the Holy Tradition in total (the Fathers being very clear on this point) that it doesn't bear need of demonstration, at least not to someone who claims to be Orthodox.

Whether or not some special provision will be made for those outside of the canonical boundaries of the Church, and what those hypothetical provisions might be, is something neither you nor I have ANY knowledge about whatsoever... which is precisely what makes the antics of the ecumenists so reprehensible, with their "agreed statements" and attribution of "ecclessial reality" and "grace bearing mysteries" to the unfortunate heresies and schisms which populate the world under varying names and circumstances.

Seraphim

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Post by bogoliubtsy »

seraphim reeves wrote:

However, what I can say unambiguously, is that there is no salvation, none outside of the Orthodox Church.

Well, you'd better hurry up and join it then! :wink:

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Bogoliubtsy,

Well, you'd better hurry up and join it then!

And how! Though, oddly enough, there are people here who would probably say I'm already baptized and chrismated...

Seraphim

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