Do you consider Protestants to be Christians?

[Vicki]

How long before there are liturgical commissions seeking to edit the texts for anything that conflicts with today's 'values' or it's 'superior secular mores"?

There, Stephen, I agree with you. The answer is, they already have. Just look at Psalm 50, and see how the word "holocaust" is replaced...

Well, in a sense this is connected to the original issue. The reason why recent translations avoid the word "holocaust" is that the word now has malign connotations of devastation, connotations which are inaccurate in the context of the psalm. It's just another example of how the church cannot control what words mean.

I don't see how this has much to do with praxis. I would say, however, that the meaning of praxis is also not entirely within the church's control-- but that's another long exchange.

Otherwise I wouldn't disagree.

Except that the changes were made in the 80's, to replace the 1970's translations...When the word holocaust already had the connotations it has now. The church cannot control what images it calls to mind in secularists, but SHOULD be able to present an alternate image in context to those not of the world. If it cannot, then the CHURCH has failed to teach the faith. In the same book, we also see political correctness creeping in in other places, as well as a general "dumbing down of language which in essence loses theology. For instance, Hades in no longer VEXED...Hades MURMURED. BEG PARDON? We lost the sense of frustrated anger and helplessness, and replaced it with a mumble? WHAT? "Friends, Romans, Countrymen! Listen to me..." OK...

It has much to do with praxis, because once we lose the true sense of the Church, we are prone to heresy. We pick and choose from our beliefs, and more so because of a "politically correct" translation...that supports our view of the world as it is today, in its insanity, rather than the world as it SHOULD be, as Christ and the Apostles taught...

So what comes next for the poor Psalm 50?

In sin my mother conceived me? Good GRACIOUS! Have to lose that, or feminists won't come to Church!

Then I will offer bullocks upon your altar? OH NO! PETA will picket! Delete!

No, no, no! A thousand times NO! You can't START making small changes, for fear of connotations hurting someone's delicate shell pink ears...or it can end that way! You have to educate the people IN the Church, so they KNOW there is another meaning to the word, and do not seek to change it, and are secure in the teachings of the Church!

PRAXIS...teach the TRUTH, and let those with wisdom chose to follow it. BUT YOU HAVE TO TEACH TRUTH.

Vicki

[Etienne]

Vicki, you remind me of a lovely tale I heard in relation to the late Archbishop John of Shanghai, in relation to his being asked to bless the food at a gathering during a fast period.

He literally went around blessing the food saying, "Bless this food, except the cheese, the eggs......etc".

I have known other clergy who have had the integrity to do the same but others, perhaps lacking the courage, did not give such a clear pastoral teaching.

As to fasting being for the monks, sadly you do hear such sentiments expressed. Where does The Church teach such a thing? Our forebears fasted. And worked longer hours, did not have insulated houses, central heating, freezers or labour saving devices. Transport has been revolutionised beyond recognition. Shops were not full of vegetables and fruits out of their season.

Fasting is for Christians, monastic or non-monastic. So are the round of services, in which is so much of the teaching material of our Faith. If we are not careful then the Orthodox may become like the majority of Roman Catholics, who have jettisons almost all their services save for the ubiquitous mass.

We too have our folk who feel the services are too long, the clergys' clothes too Old World and the icons not pretty enough.

I agree with you too about the original question, which I have indicated from the beginning, but should have said so more clearly. Each of us will at the Last and Dreadful judgement be required to give an account of themselves.

A Serbian priest once told me a story when I told him of concerns I had about the writings of a relative. It should have been my guide earlier.

An author died and found himself deep in Hell. All around him were others suffering torments for their sins in this life. After a while he noticed some would be removed to a place of lesser torment. This went on and on. He finally plucked up courage and addressed one of the attendant Demons, "Tell why do I remain here who only wrote a book?"

But the Demon merely glowered at him and turned away. Yet more time passed and once again he plucked up courage and called out to the Demon, "Why I still here?" "And why should you not remain?", growled the dread Demon. "I, an author, remain in terrible torment while murders, robbers, fornicators and embezzlers that were here with me have been moved to a placed of lesser torment?"

"Yes", rumbled that dread Demon, "and you will remain here as long as men read your book".

A simple story told long ago and a telling lesson.

To the question of editing the texts of services in order to satisfy modern sensibilities, I too have grave reservations. Our ways are NOT the ways of the world. We are followers of Christ and not what ever 'ism' that is currently in fashion. The language of the services is not the language of the street. Our Faith is not rooted in time but in eternity.

However there are those who want to 'rid' us of these offensive words. Some indeed warn that Christians may have to return to the Catacombs. Yet all around so many offensive and vulgar words will pass without so much as a flicker. In the name of free speech, you understand. Let us keep our 'foolishness' and let them embrace their 'wisdom; for they are like ravening beasts and will never be satisfied.

[CGW]

Vicki, you remind me of a lovely tale I heard in relation to the late Archbishop John of Shanghai, in relation to his being asked to bless the food at a gathering during a fast period.

He literally went around blessing the food saying, "Bless this food, except the cheese, the eggs......etc".

And what if he had taken dishes he saw with eggs and/or cheese in them and had dumped them in the trash instead? Or if a parishioner had then grabbed her dish and fled? Or if one of those standing about said, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat" and had taken a portion of one of the forbidden dishes?

You see, the meaning of praxis is not so easily controlled either (since we seem to be determined to visit that topic anyway). We (or you, since after all I'm a DP) may not be of the world, but we are in it, and what we say and do is done in the world, and has non-spiritual as well as spiritual effects. And in the world, meaning isn't just a property, but it is also a transaction; misunderstanding is a joint act.

Likewise, making the translation a symbol of Orthodox changelessness is not an act whose meaning can be controlled. It could just as well be a symbol of Orthodox intransigence, or even spite.

[Vicki]

CGW,

When a priest has repeatedly taught that somethink is FORBIDDEN BY THE CHURCH during a fast, and yet people persist in bringing that food to the church DURING the fast, sometimes, a point must be made in a very clear-cut way as described.

What you have here, is people DELIBERATELY choosing to flaunt the teachings of the Church. As an Anglican, you may not have observed this, but I most certainly have! I have seen (and argued with) members of the women's charitable organization in meetings where they say that "Father says all the food has to be fasting, but I will make mine with milk and butter anyway." Sorry, CGW...for THAT level of disobedience, which is all too common, it IS necessary that a stinging rebuke be made to teach a lesson! The lesson is: You may be given an ekonomia to abstain from fasting IN YOUR OWN HOME due to illness or age, but if you bring something to the Church, it MUST comply with the rules of the Church! Over and OVER and OVER we hear this! And many see NO REASON WHY THEIR FAVORITE FOODS CAN NOT BE EATEN...Why they should give anything up...Why be obedient???

In such case, it is REQUIRED that the truth be taught...deliberate disobedience isn't excused as mistakes are.

Translations a symbol of spite? Please. Modify your version of the Bible...keep the sense of the words, fine. Lose them altogether? No, that is wrong. Vexed does not equal murmered. You are missing something, here.

Vicki

[CGW]

Well, one thing I am definitely missing is the context of "vexed" vs. "murmured"-- I was still thinking of "holocaust".

And I don't think the explication of the context in which the bishop's rebuke was made detracts from my point; the fact that you feel the need to supply that context confirms my point (which was not, btw, to rebuke him, never mind my Anglo-American distaste for deliberate public embarassment).

[Vicki]

Well, one thing I am definitely missing is the context of "vexed" vs. "murmured"-- I was still thinking of "holocaust".

And I don't think the explication of the context in which the bishop's rebuke was made detracts from my point; the fact that you feel the need to supply that context confirms my point (which was not, btw, to rebuke him, never mind my Anglo-American distaste for deliberate public embarassment).

Misunderstanding IS a joint act, and so is public defiance. At the parish level, frequently what is seen IS such, CGW. I would not say so if I had not seen it OVER and OVER.

And the explanation is to prevent someone who is NOT of the "internal workings" of the thing...in which case, yourself, from incorrectly thinking that bashing people who make innocent mistakes is the order of business. This cannot be farther from the truth! It is also something I strenuously protest against myself...BUT:

I have seen this happen too often when one goes from a "cheeze pizza" sort of priest to one who is true to the traditions of the Church. People get angry and resent what they see as an imposition of monastic strictness, where in fact, they should be angry at the priest who betrayed the teachings of the Church, and led them falsely! It takes over three YEARS for a parish to settle down again, after such a transition, and it is a very harmful thing, yet a priest who cares for those souls that God has entrusted him with cannot tell them lies and lead them into falsehood because they want to hear this!

Yes, some will grumble, some will be offended, some may go to The-Orthodox-Church-Next-Door. And why? Because there will be found a lax priest, to make all comfy for them. Christianity is a struggle. A constant struggle. A true priest, shepherd of his flock, and mindful of the souls in his care, guides them truly, and assists in this struggle. My own spiritual father is VERY STRICT regarding the fasts, as they are to be kept within the church, and church functions. Will he modify them? In a heartbeat for individuals if he sees that fasting may cause harm. But as to bringing a dish to the Church, for a community meal...it must be within the guidelines of the Church.

Public defiance merits public rebuke! Meeting after meeting for several YEARS I heard the same people fight this. PUBLICLY speaking defiance. If they PUBLICLY defy the Church, they can consider themselves fortunate indeed to get off with "only" a public rebuke! The Canons call for excommunication! Someone who chooses to VOCALLY set opposition to the teachings of the Church may well place himself in a position of being rebuked for it.

Again, this DOES NOT APPLY to a "newbie" making an innocent mistake! Although I can honestly say that my own spiritual father takes care to provide shops, foods, recipes, etc to ANYONE who asks him, and publishes guidelines, and STATES that if anyone is ill, or pregnat, or infirm, or young, they should see him, and he will modify the fast, as he DOES NOT WANT PEOPLE MADE SICK! ALL the Fathers are clear on this.

Plublic rebukes are for public flaunting of the fast. Far more serious than private breaking the fast, such public misbehaviour can lead others to sin, by breaking the fast, on the grounds that, the food is here, father blessed it, we can eat it.

Praxis is complicated. We must look to ourselves, and see that if we do something for the CHURCH, it is in accordance with the laws of the CHURCH. Only the priest may determine what sort of rebuke is needed. Sometimes, it IS public.

Praxis demands also that we support each other...if we see someone who says "I can't do the fast, I don't know what to cook...can't aford seafood...don't like beans..." Help him out! Share recipes...if dining together with Orthodox friends, be mindful of the fast! Support one another, and be a help...then people will not NEED to be so defiant!
I once pointed out to one woman that I TRULY failed to see her issue! She would bake hundreds of koulourakia for a church even, if they were not Lenten...but Lenten recipe AS time consuming, just used different ingredients, and was, in fact, LESS expensive to make! She gaped at me for a few seconds, and said...I never thought about that...her whole mind was on resisting the "concept" of the fast...not on how easy it would be to keep it!

And for those, sometimes, a rebuke is needed...as it is a MINDSET that needs altering...not a true problem requiring counseling. (This avails not with these folk..I've seen it in action too often)

But again, we need to look to OURSELVES, not to others...for this constency. As long as the "answer" varies from priest to priest, because the canons are ignored, or the priest fails to spell out to someone that he makes an ekonomia in their case owing to WEAKNESS, ILLNESS, ETC, then you have people who hop disaffectedly from parish to parish, and jurisdiction to jurisdiction, because of priests who are not shepherding their flocks in accordance to Truth, but in accordance to convenience.

Having nothing to do with Protestants, CGW, D***ed or otherwise
And therefore, I repeat my post: Enough PROTESTANT-BASHING already...look to OURSELVES!

Vicki