Russian Orthodox churches may unite soon

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OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Ania,

Don't think for a moment that "sergianism" is a relic which was swept away with the fall of Communism. Sergianism has evolved and is a global phenomenon. Today, more than ever before, it is a modern trend. Ecumenism, modernism, sergianism, are all close cousins, one borrowing from the other, and the very die in which their communion is cast.

The Orthodox Christians, who in our age of disbelief have preserved the living flame of Orthodoxy as their principle of faith and life, are entitled to address the following question to the contemporary heirarchs of the ROCOR: The sacred canons instilled by the Holy Spirit into the God-bearing Fathers, whose shoes we are unworthy to untie, are they valid, or invalid in the Orthodox Church? Yes, or no? And if they are invalid, one should in all dignity and boldness name the instance above the Ecumenical and Local Councils which has adopted this new decision?

There is no time left for keeping silent. We are now living on the threshold of the reign of Antichrist, when almost all people have deviated from truth. A truly inhuman assault is directed against the Church of Christ; everyone standing firm in the faith should be inspired by the deeds of the holy confessors who were chosen by God in the most difficult times experienced by the Church. They defended the truth of Orthodoxy sometimes remaining alone against all others. But God was with them!

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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Gregory,

You make good points on your posts, even though I do not draw the same conclusions as you do.

Out of curiosity, what are your conclusions?

But please answer an honest question: Do you consider OOD Orthodox? Do you consider GOC Orthodox? It seems that you don't because 1) ROAC is not in communion with GOC and because 2) no church outside of ROAC is Orthodox.

The ROAC as it is currently established, separated from ROCOR several years ago over it's betrayal of basic Orthodox principles - a double betrayal since ROCOR had for so long strongly articulated those principles. The ROCOR, prior to 1995, was in communion with the GOC of Greece (OOD's Church.) Many would argue that ROAC is the "continuing ROCOR".

The GOC of Greece, otoh, is the continuing Church of Greece, separating herself from the ecumenist-new calendarists decades ago. Up until recently (as previously mentioned), she was in communion with ROCOR, which ROAC had been a part of until it's defection (indeed, the separation of those Bishops under Metropolitan Valentin and their flocks from ROCOR, involved the same basic events which caused the break between ROCOR and the GOC.)

Seeing that both parties come from different basic historical situations, and that the ROAC emerged from a Church which had in fact broken with the GOC, it's understandable that neither party is currently in communion with one another. While (for various, even understandable reasons) there are those in both camps who are wary of the other, most consider it inevitable that formal relations will be established in the near future. Certainly, there is no question of faith dividing the two - rather, it is a matter of circumstances; chaos created by ecumenist heretics, not by the victims therof who have done their best to extricate themselves from such impiety.

This would not be the first time in Christian history that two groups of Bishops, both confessing the truth and fighting so called "official churches" under the control of heretics, were slow to seal their unity visibly, ASAP. There have been Saints who were not in "official" communion with one another, for similar reasons.

I've been told part of the "hesitation" at this point, is a matter of "wait and see" - namely, waiting to see what the GOC manages to do in terms of it's healing it's relations with other Greek Old Calendarist bodies (the Matthewites in particular, a large group of which last I heard, were in talks with the GOC of Greece). Perhaps the GOC has the same mind regarding ROAC and what might happen after ROCOR officially re-joins the MP (perhaps there are those in the GOC, for whatever reason, holding out hopes for the ROCOR since I get the impression Metropolitan Petros was quite perplexed as to why the ROCOR did what it did back in '95 with the Cyrpianites.)

These are the messy circumstances of life which need to be worked out. It has nothing to do with saying officially one way or another that "group X is not Orthodox." Though to be fair, I know that there are those in ROAC who as individuals do not think the GOC of Greece is legit (I'm obviously not one of them.) Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if the feeling was mutual in a similar proportion on the other side of the fence.

Blame the heretics. To do otherwise is like blaming the children of a messy divorce for having to sort out so much confusion and turmoil, as if they were the cause of their own troubles and misfortune.

Seraphim

Gregory
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Post by Gregory »

Out of curiosity, what are your conclusions?

First, I believe that liturgical ecumenism is a great heresy. Non-liturgical ecumenical get-togethers are okay if the Faith is not compromised...and absolutely no liturgical celebrations. Even though I am a member of the OCA, I am very sympathetic to the Old Calendar. The "branch theory" is also a great heresy. So on and so forth.

With that said, I do not believe that the OCA or the churches in communion with her are Graceless. I do not believe that the Calendar issue could break a church from Orthodoxy (again, like I said, I would be in favor of the restoration of the Old Calendar for the good of the Church). I do not believe that any "World Orthodox" church officially teaches the "branch theory", nor actively lives it's life as if it does.

Of course, some bishops are guilty of ecumenical liturgical celebrations. Some are guilty of implying a "branch theory". And, of course, this is wrong.

But the faithful of the Church should do whatever they can to hold fast to the Faith and cure those who may hold unorthodox positions within the Church. In other words, stay and heal those who are sick. Don't run off at the drop of a hat and anathamatize everyone else. Look, the Church is 2,000 years old...and 80 years is not a long time. It takes time to work things out and correct errors.

What church has not been guilty of breaking a canon at some point? The canons are important, but let's be honest about things. At what point do you break communion? Is a church Graceless when they break one letter of a canon?

These are the messy circumstances of life which need to be worked out. It has nothing to do with saying officially one way or another that "group X is not Orthodox." Though to be fair, I know that there are those in ROAC who as individuals do not think the GOC of Greece is legit (I'm obviously not one of them.) Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if the feeling was mutual in a similar proportion on the other side of the fence.

How would a member of GOC be received into ROAC?

Gregory

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Gregory,

If I may, of the times I know of a member of ROAC coming to our church, they are not "received", they are considered Orthodox.

But as Seraphim says, without a Synodal decision, the situation might vary.

Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

What is the Holy Remnantical, Anti-Ecumenist, Traditionalist, ROAC -GOC take on the prophecy of St. Anatole the Younger of Optina?

"A great miracle of God will be manifested. And all the splinters and fragments, by the will of God and His power, will come together and be united, and the ship will be rebuilt in its beauty and will go on its own way as foreordained by God. And this will be a miracle evident to everyone.”

Will the Russian Orthodox "splinters" and "fragments" come together as a restored Russian Orthodox Church or not?

bogoliubtsy
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Post by bogoliubtsy »

Waldemar wrote:

What is the Holy Remnantical, Anti-Ecumenist, Traditionalist, ROAC -GOC take on the prophecy of St. Anatole the Younger of Optina?

"A great miracle of God will be manifested. And all the splinters and fragments, by the will of God and His power, will come together and be united, and the ship will be rebuilt in its beauty and will go on its own way as foreordained by God. And this will be a miracle evident to everyone.”

Will the Russian Orthodox "splinters" and "fragments" come together as a restored Russian Orthodox Church or not?

Thanks for posting that Waldemar! It truly is a miracle.

Waldemar
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Post by Waldemar »

This will probably mark me as an Orthodox naif, but I must ask this:

Might the wholesale judging of whole Patriarchates and "jurisdictions" (and all of the Orthodox Christian strugglers within these groups) as heretical and therefore wholly without grace possibly fall under the category of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

I'm thinking that I see something akin to the negative spirit (note lower case) that is rebuked by the Lord Jesus Christ in this passage from the Holy Gospel of St. Mark:

And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

I agree with an earlier poster that there seem to be some here who relish the division in the Orthodox Church, especially in the Russian part of that Church. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

There are some here who see the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing healing to the division in the Russian Orthodox Church. Others see a different spirit at work in this reunion. There is a very real danger here.

Isn't it better to pray for this potential reunion with great fear and trembling but with hope and joy than to campaign for continued division? Whose side are we on?

Gospodi Pomilui!

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