On the question of the calendar

[Miriam]

Joasia Wrote: It seems quite simple to me, but why do others have to make it so complicated?

Simple human nature.... we can't take anything at face value, and we always love to muck up the waters... Can't leave well enough alone...

[icxn]

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. (Rom. 14:5-7)

From St. John Chrysostom:

Ver. 5. "One man esteemeth one day above another, another esteemeth every day alike."

Here he seems to me to be giving a gentle hint about fasting. For it is not unlikely that some who fasted were always judging those who did not, or among the observances it is likely that there were some that on fixed days abstained, and on fixed days did not. Whence also he says, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." And in this way he released those who kept the observances from fear, by saying that the thing was indifferent, and he removed also the quarrelsomeness of those who attacked them, by showing that it was no very desirable (or urgent, περισπούδαστον) task to be always making a trouble about these things. Yet it was not a very desirable task, not in its own nature, but on account of the time chosen, and because they were novices in the faith. For when he is writing to the Colossians, it is with great earnestness that he forbids it, saying, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ." (Col. ii. 8, see p. 4.) And again, "Let no man judge you in meat or in drink" (ib. 16), and, "let no man beguile you of your reward." (ib. 18.) And when writing to the Galatians with great precision, he exacts of them Christian spirit and perfectness in this matter. But here he does not use this vehemency, because the faith was lately planted in them. Let us therefore not apply the phrase, "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind," to all subjects. For when he is speaking of doctrines, hear what he says, "If any one preacheth unto you any gospel other than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal. i. 9), "even" if it be "an angel." And again, "I fear lest by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted." (2 Cor. xi. 3.) And in writing to the Philippians, he says, "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision." (Phil. iii. 2.) But with the Romans, since it was not yet the proper time for setting things of this sort right, "Let every man," he says, "be fully persuaded in his own mind." For he had been speaking of fasting. It was to clear away the vanity of the others and to release these from fear then, that he said as follows:

Ver. 6. "He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it." And, "He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks."

He still keeps to the same subject. And what he means is about this. The thing is not concerned with fundamentals. For the thing requisite is, if this person and the other are acting for God's sake, the thing requisite is (these words are repeated 3 mss.), if both terminate in thanksgiving. For indeed both these and those give thanks to God. If then both do give thanks to God, the difference is no great one. But let me draw your notice to the way in which here also he aims unawares a blow at the Judaizers. For if the thing required be this, the "giving of thanks," it is plain enough that he which eateth it is that "giveth thanks," and not "he which eateth not." For how should he, while he still holds to the Law? As then he told the Galatians, "As many of you as are justified by the Law are fallen from grace" (Gal. v. 4);

(Source: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-11/npnf1-11-89.htm)

[joasia]

ICXN

So I guess we should just disregard all the decisions made by the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

Those quotes you took came from a time when nothing was established. Even the celebration of Pascha and Christmas were not in unison. But, you forget that those times were still new to the faith.

Hence, the reason for the Councils. To establish a concrete confession and direction of their faith.

The Bible wasn't compiled, as we know it, until the 4th century. The Apostles were explaining the need to be patient and understanding with others who celebrated differently, in other regions, but still worshipped the same Messiah. The era has to be taken into consideration; even the saints explained that.

The same goes for people who use quotes from the Bible to excuse mixed religious marriages. Back then, the people were already married and one became Christian, so they were councilled to have faith and stay with their spouse. Today, clergy use it as an excuse to marry non-Orthodox into the Orthodox church without baptism.

I know of a lovely couple...he is Greek/Orthodox and she is Italian/Catholic. They got married due to the priest's discretion. She didn't get baptised. And they adopted a sweet little girl that they love very deeply. I will not judge their marriage. But, to my suprise, she decided to get baptised after a few years of marriage. Sometimes, things work out that way.

What I'm saying is that I don't discriminate against the woman. But, I do whole-heartily believe that Orthodoxy is the true faith of worshipping Jesus Christ. If I didn't, I would deny all the lives of all the Orthodox saints. (By the way, I'm a convert from RC, myself - no marriage involvement though).

So going back to my original comment...the holy fathers finally established a unified calendar that even heaven celebrates, because the holy fathers were inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT and therefore it was right by the HOLY SPIRIT and the holy fathers. The saints wrote about that too. I didn't get this view from thin air.

The hierarchy that disrupted that unity, starting with the bishop of Rome and then the Pat. of Constantinople were outrageously wrong. They caused a spiritual schism which is worse that a national schism.

The new calendar follows their own path, but then shifts into Great Lent gear to follow that schedule. After Pentecost, they shift back into their own calendar and sometime miss the fast of St. Peter and Paul altogether.

Does that sound logical to you?

[Nektarios14]

In other words, why do people just ignore the great significance of the spiritual disturbance that it causes?

Basicly because of neo-Papal ecclesiology. Since the "official" EP made the switch opposing it would be disobedience. It is intersting though in the timing of the change. Supposing the Russian Revolution hadn't occured there would have been a very strong and respected Patriach of Moscow in Saint Tikhon - had he not been busy trying to save his own church from complete devastation he probably would have stood up to Meletios and stopped the whole change in its infancy.

Now this will evoke some controvesy...

I also think that the extreme old calendarists have caused the average person to look with suspicion on the entire movement. But that is from my POV as one who respects Metr. Cyprian.

[joasia]

Good point Nick,

St. Tikhon was quite busy. Guess it was God's providence.

The old calendarists are fanatics, but their issues are beyond the old calendar, they are plain fanatics with no compassion. They will beat you over the head with a bat because you don't go to church everyday, but they will preach God's love. I'm not one of those. I'm a convert and look at the calendar issue on a logical realm as I did with catholism and Orthodoxy. That's why I saw that the Orthodox faith kept the true tradition of worshipping God.

But the issue of the calendar being changed, is very significant. It just doesn't fly with me. Why change a calendar that was established for over 1900 years and just say that, hey, this is what we're doing now.

Does anybody know that when the calendar was changed by one of the popes, that there was a revolt by the parishners? Many innocent parishners were killed by the popes's army because they disagreed with him.

And by the way, that's how Poland got taken over by the pope. The bishops were threatened death if they didn't bow down to him.

But, that's another thread.

[尼古拉前执事]

The old calendarists are fanatics, but their issues are beyond the old calendar, they are plain fanatics with no compassion.

Would you please provide proof for your claim that all of those on the Old Calendar (i.e. Old Calendarists) are all without compassion, please? Of course we should all be fanatics for Christ, so I shall not argue that point.

[TomS]

I don't think the new calendar is acceptable at all. I would love to see all the Orthodox go back on the old calendar.

As you know, I always support Tradition.