Authority

Lucian · Post by **Lucian** » Mon 5 July 2004 10:40 am

Aristokles wrote:
Lucian,
You seem caught in a Protestant loop of sorts. As a note, trying to approach this from an individual's vantage is even more difficult and prone to circular thinking.
The Authority of the Church (the Bride) is the Pantokrator - the Bridegroom. Interpretation flows from Him through the Church guided by the Helper.

Demetri

I don't think it is Protestant loop as much as it is human loop or perhaps a logic loop.

As Tom said above, "Which Church?"

How does someone who is looking - sincerely - for the true Church and the authentic Way recognize them when he sees them?

Everybody claims he is guided by the Holy Spirit.

But, since it is unlikely that the Holy Spirit contradicts Himself, they cannot all be right.

How does the observer tell which ones are guided by the Holy Spirit and which are not?

Surely the Lord left us with some objective means of spotting the true Church from among the many pretenders to that title?

尼古拉前执事 · Post by **尼古拉前执事** » Mon 5 July 2004 10:45 am

The Protestant trap is the one where we look for a faith that matches what we personally believe. To find the true faith, we have to put away our pride, put away our preconceptions and look back to the the early Church. Look at what it believed for those first 1,000 years and then look forward and see what Church is still teaching these same things. Which ones have no discarded the teachings of the councils, which ones have not changed the Faith, which ones are strict tot he teachings, but still full of Christian love.

Lucian · Post by **Lucian** » Mon 5 July 2004 10:58 am

Deacon Nikolai wrote:
The Protestant trap is the one where we look for a faith that matches what we personally believe. To find the true faith, we have to put away our pride, put away our preconceptions and look back to the the early Church. Look at what it believed for those first 1,000 years and then look forward and see what Church is still teaching these same things. Which ones have no discarded the teachings of the councils, which ones have not changed the Faith, which ones are strict tot he teachings, but still full of Christian love.

Well, that is certainly the best answer I've seen thus far.

I think it still seems to be saying that it is up to each of us as individuals to read, interpret, and decide for ourselves.

There is nothing wrong with that answer, but we should be aware that that is what the answer is.

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Mon 5 July 2004 10:59 am

Deacon Nikolai wrote:
Which ones have no discarded the teachings of the councils, which ones have not changed the Faith, which ones are strict to the teachings, but still full of Christian love.

But didn't the Church as taught by Archbishop Gregory fit this? So where does that leave you?

It is not that simple, Nick.

Lucian · Post by **Lucian** » Mon 5 July 2004 11:07 am

Deacon Nikolai wrote:
The Protestant trap is the one where we look for a faith that matches what we personally believe. To find the true faith, we have to put away our pride, put away our preconceptions and look back to the the early Church. Look at what it believed for those first 1,000 years and then look forward and see what Church is still teaching these same things. Which ones have no discarded the teachings of the councils, which ones have not changed the Faith, which ones are strict tot he teachings, but still full of Christian love.

I know many Protestants who - as far as I can tell - sincerely believe they are pursuing the truth and the will of God. They just read the Bible and Church history and come to a different set of conclusions from the Orthodox ones.

I know Catholics who read a lot of the same stuff we read and likewise sincerely believe they are right.

No one would acknowledge that he is shaping reality to match his own set of personal preferences.

Couldn't we be accused by the others of doing that?

It still seems to be a matter of individual reading, interpretation, and choice.

How is the sincere seeker to keep his head from spinning completely off his neck?

How does he choose from among the many competing churches (not to mention religions)?

尼古拉前执事 · Post by **尼古拉前执事** » Mon 5 July 2004 11:12 am

I can only speak for myself. Reading the councils as a uniate showed me who had truly changed the Faith and the RC's were the guilty party. As for Protestants, any honest reading of the history of the church would prove to them without a shadow of a doubt that the Church was always liturgical and had bishops, priests and deacons, It is all being open to the cold hard truth and then one will see the light.

Lucian · Post by **Lucian** » Mon 5 July 2004 11:14 am

Deacon Nikolai wrote:
I can only speak for myself. Reading the councils as a uniate showed me who had truly changed the Faith and the RC's were the guilty party. As for Protestants, any honest reading of the history of the church would prove to them without a shadow of a doubt that the Church was always liturgical and had bishops, priests and deacons, It is all being open to the cold hard truth and then one will see the light.

Well, I agree.

But what we are really saying is that our arguments are better than their arguments.

And what that means is that each individual must be convinced by a set of propositions and decide for him/herself.

So, no matter what we say about authority, ultimately, for our own souls, we are it.