OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:And the anwer is ??????? Cause I think that is the question that was being asked?
Pray. And study the history, lives, and teachings of the saints of the Church. At some point if you also practice it, you will not only know, you will be!
Quite simple.
Excellent answer! I agree with your recommendation. We must not put our faith in any one teacher.
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They say that I am bad news. They say "Stay Away."
Lucian,
Your questions sounded like a person who is totally confused about something that is so straight-forward and clear.
Why such confused questions?
You sound so unsure about Orthodoxy? Sometimes, if you think too hard about something, you can started getting confused.
But, please do explain, from what percept you are coming from, so that I will not mis-understand you.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
mor ephrem: Is there a purely objective way to definitely know what the Apostolic Tradition is?
That is my question in a nutshell!
Honestly, I would answer, "no."
Everything we know is filtered through the lens of our own subjective experience.
Part of traveling the Narrow Way is the struggle to adhere to the truth and only the truth through prayer, asceticism, and study.
Lying to oneself and saying, "I am completely objective," is the first step off the path.
This doesn't mean the truth is relative or unknowable.
And it doesn't mean that I must acknowledge the possibility that other religions could be correct.
It simply means that I am responsible to God for what I believe and do.
Joasia wrote:Lucian,
Your questions sounded like a person who is totally confused about something that is so straight-forward and clear.
Why such confused questions?
You sound so unsure about Orthodoxy? Sometimes, if you think too hard about something, you can started getting confused.
But, please do explain, from what percept you are coming from, so that I will not mis-understand you.
Joasia -
If you think the issue of authority is "straightforward and clear," then my hat is off to you.
My questions are not "confused."
They are pretty clear.
It's the answers that are confusing.
The question was this: who is the authority for the Christian faith?
The Bible, the Fathers, the Councils, the Liturgy, etc., are not authorities. They are documentary sources to which different persons assign different weights of importance.
Ultimately, the individual human being must decide for him/herself what he/she believes to be true.
A person could, for example, decide for Roman Catholicism and theoretically from that moment on surrender his decision-making to a supposedly infallible magisterium.
But suppose that magisterium decides one day that women and gays can be priests, or that it is not necessary to believe in the Trinity.
Does one say to himself, "Gee, I know the magisterium cannot make a mistake, so I'll go along with this"?
Suppose, on the other hand, that the vast majority of Orthodox bishops attend a supposed ecumenical council somewhere and decide that women should be priests, that the Fathers misunderstood the Monophysites, or that gays should be allowed to marry other gays of the same gender.
The bishops have spoken, right?
Nope.
Wrong.
Even if every bishop in the world was at such a conference (I know, I know: the Church cannot completely fail like that. Humor me.), I would defy it.
I am responsible to God.
If I know in my heart what the truth is and I compromise or deny it, then I am guilty before God.
Let God be true and every man - even if he happens to be a bishop - a liar.
I think that was what I was after, Joasia, if you follow me.
Each of us is responsible to know the faith and decide for him/herself.
We cannot surrender this responsibility to a bishop.
Chrysostomos: I do not believe that Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism are equally qualified and creditialed doctors who recommend different "cures." Cures that equally have the ability to heal.
Well, I agree with you.
But you and I are assuming that Orthodoxy is true.
We, as individuals, made the decision to do that.
That is the point.
The issue is authority.
When it comes down to it, you decided to become Orthodox.
Even if you trusted something or someone you regard as authoritative to convince you that Orthodoxy is true, you were the one who freely chose that course.
Once you've made the decision, all the doctors, regardless of their credentials, no longer appear equally qualified. You have acquired - rightly or wrongly - a bias.
Before you decide, however, they all appear as equal contenders.
Lucian wrote:
The Bible, the Fathers, the Councils, the Liturgy, etc., are not authorities. They are documentary sources to which different persons assign different weights of importance.
They ARE the complete authority of the Church that Christ established through the Apostles. These are not men who sat around a table, scratching their heads, saying: Soooo, what should we tell the people?
They were guided by the Holy Spirit. They are holy men. I say ARE, because they ARE, right now, sitting at the right hand of the Father.
To trust their teachings is to say to oneself: God has guided them to show us what God wants us to know about Himself and how He wants us to worship Him and believe in Him.
Bishops of today can say all kinds of things, but to have knowledge of what the holy fathers taught about the True worship of God. helps us to recognize when bishops fall away from God's teachings.
Ultimately, the individual human being must decide for him/herself what he/she believes to be true.
This is a purely protestant comment and that's why I say that you sound confused even if you proclaim to be Orthodox. There are people out there that believe that the Dali Lama is true. But, are they right? No, they are absolutely wrong. So, are you going to tell these people, well... whatever they believe, is true?? Because they decided that it's true in their lives?
A person could, for example, decide for Roman Catholicism and theoretically from that moment on surrender his decision-making to a supposedly infallible magisterium.
But suppose that magisterium decides one day that women and gays can be priests, or that it is not necessary to believe in the Trinity.
Does one say to himself, "Gee, I know the magisterium cannot make a mistake, so I'll go along with this"?
Suppose, on the other hand, that the vast majority of Orthodox bishops attend a supposed ecumenical council somewhere and decide that women should be priests, that the Fathers misunderstood the Monophysites, or that gays should be allowed to marry other gays of the same gender.
The bishops have spoken, right? Nope. Wrong.
So with these examples, you show that the decisions cannot be based on what a person decides, even if he's a bishop, because it sounds wrong to our faith of Orthodoxy...But, tell me Lucian...how do you know this sounds wrong....
Maybe because of the Church dogma that was established by, I don't know, hmmm....THE HOLY FATHERS.
Because the holy fathers made it clear, what was right and wrong in the Church of Christ, which we know as Orthodoxy today and so anything that is taught outside of that is HERESY.
Each of us is responsible to know the faith and decide for him/herself....Each of us is responsible to know the faith and decide for him/herself.
Decide? A person can read about Orthodoxy and decide that it is pure bunk. Is it bunk, if there are people out there who DECIDE it? There are people who are atheists or satanic worshippers. Are you going to tell them that whatever they feel is true is fine? These people actually BELIEVE that what they believe is true!
I, personally, would say...each of us has the opportunity to hear about Orthodoxy and if they choose to refuse, then God have mercy on their souls.
We cannot surrender this responsibility to a bishop.
The holy fathers were priceless jewels to our faith. These present-day bishops are questionable. Of course, we have to keep our eyes open with today's hierarchy. But, that brings me back to a thought...who can we trust in to guide us to the Truth?
The Apostles who established the church on Pentecost, their predessesors and those guided by the Holy Spirit to compile, not only the Seven Ecumenical Councils, but THE BIBLE, during the First Ecumenical Council. ALL theological dogma is BASED on these men and councils. And EVERY Orthodox saint who taught dogma were educated with the teachings OF the councils, depending on how many councils existed at the time of that saint. And the present-day hierarchy have to follow their teachings. They know that. Because if any of them start preaching something else, anybody can hold up a Council canon to put them back in their place. The same canons that were compiled by the holy fathers who were inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT.
The question was this: who is the authority for the Christian faith?
If you can't figure that out by now, then you are more lost than I thought.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
Dear Joasia,
I apologise for being so blunt, before you go on ranting about how certain people are "more lost than you thought", you ought to actually READ what they're saying and THINK about it.
I am going to try illustrating what I think is the point in this discussion with reference to your last post:
Joasia wrote:Lucian wrote:
The Bible, the Fathers, the Councils, the Liturgy, etc., are not authorities. They are documentary sources to which different persons assign different weights of importance.
They ARE the complete authority of the Church that Christ established through the Apostles. These are not men who sat around a table, scratching their heads, saying: Soooo, what should we tell the people?
How do you know? Prove it.
They were guided by the Holy Spirit. They are holy men. I say ARE, because they ARE, right now, sitting at the right hand of the Father.
How do you know? Prove it.
There are people out there that believe that the Dali Lama is true. But, are they right? No, they are absolutely wrong.
How do you know? Prove it.
So with these examples, you show that the decisions cannot be based on what a person decides, even if he's a bishop, because it sounds wrong to our faith of Orthodoxy...But, tell me Lucian...how do you know this sounds wrong....
Maybe because of the Church dogma that was established by, I don't know, hmmm....THE HOLY FATHERS.
How do you know? Prove it.
Because the holy fathers made it clear, what was right and wrong in the Church of Christ, which we know as Orthodoxy today and so anything that is taught outside of that is HERESY.
How do you know? Prove it.
Decide? A person can read about Orthodoxy and decide that it is pure bunk. Is it bunk, if there are people out there who DECIDE it? There are people who are atheists or satanic worshippers. Are you going to tell them that whatever they feel is true is fine? These people actually BELIEVE that what they believe is true!
Right, and you believe that whatever you believe is true. Do you really think you are going to convince them by saying "Orthodoxy is right and Satanism is wrong because I, Joasia, say so"? You and I proceed from the point of view that Orthodoxy is the true faith. Others don't start from that POV, but from others. You and I believe that we are objectively right, and many of them believe they are objectively right. Just telling them "No, you're not right, we are!" is not going to convince anyone of anything other than possibly "Man, s/he's weird". Let's face it, after all: if they came and told us that our religion was a load of _____ and that they were right, isn't that the least we'd think of them?
I, personally, would say...each of us has the opportunity to hear about Orthodoxy and if they choose to refuse, then God have mercy on their souls.
This can only go so far. There are places in the world (many places) where Orthodoxy itself is unknown, let alone places where that type of Orthodoxy which the majority of this board would probably consider the only true Orthodoxy is unknown. They may not even know there is such a thing as "true Orthodoxy". How are they going to have an opportunity to hear about Orthodoxy?
The holy fathers were priceless jewels to our faith. These present-day bishops are questionable. Of course, we have to keep our eyes open with today's hierarchy.
How do you know? Prove it.
And a thought: today's Holy Fathers were yesterday's "present day bishops". The same Holy Spirit that guided them...did It abandon their successors?
But, that brings me back to a thought...who can we trust in to guide us to the Truth?
The Apostles who established the church on Pentecost, their predessesors and those guided by the Holy Spirit to compile, not only the Seven Ecumenical Councils, but THE BIBLE, during the First Ecumenical Council. ALL theological dogma is BASED on these men and councils. And EVERY Orthodox saint who taught dogma were educated with the teachings OF the councils, depending on how many councils existed at the time of that saint. And the present-day hierarchy have to follow their teachings. They know that. Because if any of them start preaching something else, anybody can hold up a Council canon to put them back in their place. The same canons that were compiled by the holy fathers who were inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT.
Says you. But how do you know? Prove it.
Lucian's question, if I'm understanding it properly, is not with regard to Orthodoxy per se, but to how we know. Is there an objective way of knowing that X is false and Y is true? That question is not so easily answered just by saying "Our religion, Orthodoxy, is correct, and all others are incorrect, because that is what our religion/the Holy Fathers/the Councils/whatever teach(es)".
