I am what some people would call a 'Cyprianite', and something has just occurred to me thanks to a discussion I've had with Joanna ('Joasia').
If we say that the Mysteries of certain Orthodox Local Churches are invalid and lack Grace- if we are incorrect, are we not blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
Interestingly enough this is the stance fo the ROAC and the Metroplolitan and the Synod.
Some see this as a "cop out" after some of the beliefs that have been espoused by some of the "locals" here in Colorado, but in fact is this not the Truth? Do we seriously think we have the right to judge other Synods just because we do not like their heads?
Granted I am not talking about blatant and outright heresy and apostasy here, but I am talking of personal attacks against persons for the simple fact that they are not in, or have left "such" and "such" a jurisdiction.
Maybe I am alone in this thought but I do notbet on it...
George,
Which conversation was this? You purposely implicated my name. Why?
It's very dangerous to determine where the Holy Spirit is or is not. I personally, will not talk about this subject as it may be a detriment to my salvation.
On the other hand, we can talk about which bishops are not performing as true Orthodox sheperds. There are many freemason men in the position of bishops who have no concern for the truth and want to destroy the faith of God in people. For crying out loud, the Patriarch of Constantinople is a freemason!!
So is the Holy Spirit active in Holy Communion when the Patriarch serves, or any bishop under him? I will not answer that.
I may have opinions of you George, but I will not make a comment about the Holy Spirit's presence. As you quoted on the other thread:
"'Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they will utter, but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation'"- because they said,'He has an unclean Spirit.'"(Mark 3:28-30)
In Christ,
Joanna
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
Joasia wrote:Which conversation was this? You purposely implicated my name. Why?
You answered your own question when you quoted the reading from scripture in our conversation.
Joasia wrote:There are many freemason men in the position of bishops who have no concern for the truth and want to destroy the faith of God in people. For crying out loud, the Patriarch of Constantinople is a freemason!!So is the Holy Spirit active in Holy Communion when the Patriarch serves, or any bishop under him? I will not answer that.
The evidence for these serious accusations is?............
Joasia wrote:I may have opinions of you George,
That's not bad since we've never met...
If we say that the Mysteries of certain Orthodox Local Churches are invalid and lack Grace- if we are incorrect, are we not blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
The faith handed down to us from the Apostles is one that clearly associates the Church with the Truth. There are not two churches, or three, there is just One Church; and it is not bound up in heresy.
But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have received, let him be anathema.
Galatians 1:8—9
OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:The faith handed down to us from the Apostles is one that clearly associates the Church with the Truth. There are not two churches, or three, there is just One Church; and it is not bound up in heresy.
Dear in Christ OOD,
We've been here before I think. Of course there is only One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church. But the meaning of the word Catholic is what I am using here. "Katholikos" = "According to the whole". This is basic ecclesiology. One Bishop with one flock contains the fullness of Grace of the entire Church, and all Bishops are equal. This is the exact opposite of what the papists teach who also claim the title "Catholic". If I were speaking to a mathematician, I would say that the Church, in some sense, is "fractal"- each 'part' containing the whole. Otherwise, how else do we interpret the second petition in the Divine Liturgy:
"For the peace of the whole world, the stability of the holy Churches of God...."
This does not mean there is more than one Church either. We are praying for the stability of the Orthodox Church in Russia under Her bishops, the stability of the Orthodox Church in Greece under Her bishops, the stability of the Orthodox Church in Jerusalem under Her bishops, the stability of the Orthodox Church in Japan under Her bishops, the stability of the Orthodox Church in China under Her bishops etc... If it was good enough for St. John Chrysostom to pray for the Churches (plural), surely it is good enough for us.
Of course, you are probably referring to the use of the word "Church" applied to the non-Orthodox. But even St. Mark Evgenikos (of Ephesus), that Atlas of Orthodoxy, referred to the latins post schism as a "Church":
I placed my hope in God and in the common saints shared between the Eastern and Western Churches. Indeed, I believed all would proceed well with us and that we would achieve something great and worthy of all our labor and hopes."
The Lives of the Pillars of Orthodoxy, Holy Apostles Convent, p. 385
Do you intend to anathemise St. Mark Evgenikos as well? 
George
George,
I think you are confusing something, I never said the "'Church' applied to the non-Orthodox". Of course there were always many local Orthodox churches and bishops, yet what we confess in the Symbol of Faith is that they are all One - ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Christ's church.
It is One througout the world, throughout time, and in Heaven (the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant) because each church, everywhere, for all and always, taught the Truth (ie. Orthodoxy). This is why the Cyprianites are in error to say the heretics are bishops of the Church and are holy. They share nothing with the Church because they teach and act in the spirit of lies and falsehood. Therefore, to say they are of the Church is to also say there are two truths, two churches, which is not what we confess in the Creed.
It is based on this that I said, the faith handed down to us from the Apostles is one that clearly associates the Church with the Truth. There are not two churches, or three, there is just One Church; and it is not bound up in heresy.
