Advice Sought

The practice of living the life in Christ: fasting, vigil lamps, head-coverings, family life, icon corners, and other forms of Orthopraxy. All Forum Rules apply.


patrick

Advice Sought

Post by patrick »

Folks, I pray that you will excuse me for making my first post a request for advice, but I have read this board from time to time and know there are some thoughtful folks here who might help me out.

My family and I converted to Orthodoxy a couple years ago. Naturally, we were full of enthusiasm, attended Divine Liturgy almost without fail and were active in our parishes projects. Now things seem to be deteriorating and I blame myself as the spiritual leader of the family. My daughter recently informed me that she doesn't believe, but will still attend liturgy to sing in the choir and socialize. Wife is satisfied to attend liturgy maybe once a month. Personally, I've become somewhat demolalized spiritually, since the more I study Orthodoxy, the more I realize what a pathetic sinner I am and since Christ said He will spit-out those who are lukewarm, I'm thinking what's the use? Even if I increased my efforts 100 times, I would still be lukewarm. It seems very futile.

I would discuss this with my parish priest, but he is a recent immigrant and a dear man, but his English is not that good. The only other clergyman in my parish isn't very receptive to giving me any advice and I almost think wants to leave himself, since he keeps suggesting that I attend meetings with him at different parish in completely different jurisdiction.

Maybe I'm committing more sin by feeling this way, but I can't seem to break out of it. Maybe many converts go through this. If someone else has had a similar situation and found a way to defeat this kind of doldrums, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

My parish is in decline and that doesn't help either.

User avatar
尼古拉前执事
Archon
Posts: 5127
Joined: Thu 24 October 2002 7:01 pm
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Non-Phylitist
Location: United States of America
Contact:

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

Dear Patrick,

My prayers are with you! Often we start with zeal and it fades over time. The most important thing I would think for you is to make sure you are keeping the praxis of the Faith. Little things like keeping the fasts and doing prayers as a family every morning and evening is a good start as this is our personal communication with God.

Right now, I would suggest you and your family read this book: Kindling the Divine Spark: Teachings on How to Preserve Spiritual Zeal

If you are up for some more reading I would also suggest The Path to Salvation: A Manual of Spiritual Transformation

But books are not enough! The best things besides the prayers are to, if at all possible, surround yourself with pious Orthodox Christians. This will definitely help. We are here for you online, but having them in real life helps even more so.

Please keep us updated as to how your family is doing!

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Fr. Nicholas made some very good points, reading is very important. This is true especially if our priest (or the whole church) is not setting the best examples in piety; the saints are our "rock stars", our sports heros, if the only example we have before us is our parish priest and he is not a "star" and maybe even a bit of a failure, then I think it to be very difficult to be "better" than the example we have before us - and that example might be one of failure. That is, unless we read about the Saints and Orthodox books in general. Of course no priest is perfect and so I do not mean you should search the globe for a guru, but I have also seen some very discouraging priests, and I don't think it is healthy to be around them either. It seems in my reading and study, saints have spawned saints.

There are also some books which I don't know if your priest would recommend, but they are very good and for the most part Orthodox in thought; and they may be "interesting" enough for your daughter to read and perhaps give her that spark - C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters".

It is very good that your wife at least will go to Church with you and the same for your daughter. I know of families that have bitter struggles on where they will go and it is a constant source of hostility for the entire family. One husband even has gone so far as to feed their children food intentionally so they cannot go to communion! There are women I know that struggle all the time, and with 3 and 4 children; sometimes you look at them and they look like death warmed over, and you cannot do anything but think these woman are absolute warriors! I admire them so much.

St. John the Chrysostom says that if you want to save your wife then first save yourself. If your wife sees the transformation in you and the change in your heart where anger is turned into love and you never stop giving yourself, first to the Lord and then to her, if she wants this for herself, heaven on earth, then she will naturally follow. So I would encourage your family when and where you can without pushing them, the Holy Spirit really must awaken their hearts and pushing them only hardens hearts.

But most of all, work on yourself! If you have ever flown in an airplane you may have noticed the safety instruction they always give: "in case of loss of cabin pressure, secure the oxygen mask on your face first, then assist smaller children and others around you." (or something like that). Your whole life has to be re-centered and re-orientated, and like Fr. Nicholas mentioned, you will go through the initial zeal, burnout, a second-wind, a third-wind, but don't let yourself fall into a state of satisfaction. One youth recently told me that if we are not building our house in heaven we are most likely destroying it. If you don't like what you see in your house, it is a reflection on your own holiness, therefore, don't fix the symptom, fix yourself.

But doing this is hard if we don't have the right motivation! We must have come to recognize Christ's love for us so that we can in turn, love Him back, and there we have the motivation for everything. How does one come to love Christ? Well there are of course many thoughts on this but I would say is coming to know the Truth; if we know the truth about ourselves and about Him, and this world, we cannot but help love him!

And so everything, ever step of the way is done with prayer. If we don't pray then we are starving ourselves of everything. Everything should be done with prayer first. When you get into your car say a prayer, and when you arrive, say a prayer.

I have rambled mostly, so forgive me for the disjointed thoughts.

spyridon

understanding

Post by spyridon »

Well you got some good advice from Fr.Nicolas and OoD,and All I can add is like your daughter I too found myself in a world of dis-belief,this was all done due to reading stuff that wasnt healthy-non-Orthodox materials etc..soon I was almost completely convinced that maybe some friends that were islam were right and I decided to become Muslim..My Dear Friend the Attacks of the evil one are very true and it will come when we are most secure in our Church and faith,but If we are weak in any area(Fasting,Prayer of the Heart,Un-Selfishness,Alms giving,and Faith)then the evil one will strike,you have done the right thing and asked your Brothers for help,we will all pray for your Family and I was guided by Gods Grace back with the understanding that I would seek Orthodoxy with Full Force and that meant The Oca organization that I belonged too wasnt enough,I found a more understanding to my problems from both Rocor-V,and Rocor-L,my dear friend sit and talk with your priest even if you think his emigrancy and failure to understand or speak english well.he has been put in your life for a reason,The Holy Spirit will allow for him to understand and guide you and pray for you and bless you and all your Family..as for the other priest trying to invite you to other Jurisdictions this could be another
trick to confuse you and your family even more,ask God and with all your heart for guidance and protection and get yourself The Icon of St.John of Shanghai and San Francisco,and ask him for intercession to God for the same.I can send you an Icon of St.John thats Been Blessed at his Relics on top of his Coffin in San Francisco...until then seek a Book called ON THE LAW OF GOD,By METROPOLITAN PHILARET of Blessed Memory....or get " Turning the Heart to God"-by St Theophan The Recluse,its I think an easier to understand version of Path to Salvation

patrick

Post by patrick »

Νικολάος Διάκ wrote:

Dear Patrick,

My prayers are with you! Often we start with zeal and it fades over time. The most important thing I would think for you is to make sure you are keeping the praxis of the Faith. Little things like keeping the fasts and doing prayers as a family every morning and evening is a good start as this is our personal communication with God.

Thank you for taking time to reply. I suppose a loss of zeal is normal and although I'm not pleased about it, I'm not so discouraged with that in itself. I think a lot of our problem is simply ignorance of Orthodox practices like fasts, for example. We might ask three people at our parish about this and get three different answers. I'm not blaiming these people, since I expect they are repeating what someone else told them or what they learned.

Praying together in the mornings and evenings is a bit of a problem due to conficting schedules, but I will see what can be done.

But books are not enough! The best things besides the prayers are to, if at all possible, surround yourself with pious Orthodox Christians. This will definitely help. We are here for you online, but having them in real life helps even more so.

Thanks for the prayers and recomendations, but I find that sometimes reading books creates problems. For example, I've been reading Seraphim Rose's biography and am about half way through it. I hoped for some inspiration, but the book has actually caused me to become discouraged enough that I'm writing here. Although interesting as a biography, I think I will set it aside for a while.

Surrounding myself with other Orthodox is hard, since the only ones I know are at my parish and that's in another town. We only have about twenty active membvers. I know no Orthodox folks very near me. I wish wasn't like this.

patrick

Post by patrick »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

Fr. Nicholas made some very good points, reading is very important. This is true especially if our priest (or the whole church) is not setting the best examples in piety; the saints are our "rock stars", our sports heros, if the only example we have before us is our parish priest and he is not a "star" and maybe even a bit of a failure, then I think it to be very difficult to be "better" than the example we have before us - and that example might be one of failure. That is, unless we read about the Saints and Orthodox books in general. Of course no priest is perfect and so I do not mean you should search the globe for a guru, but I have also seen some very discouraging priests, and I don't think it is healthy to be around them either. It seems in my reading and study, saints have spawned saints.

I know what you're saying, but lately the more I read about the saints, the more dismayed I become since I have failed in so many ways and don't have a whole life in front of me. Its like being 50 years old, completely out of shape, and going to the gym thinking you're going to match a guy who has all kinds of natural ability and is in top shape from has been training for 20 years. You know the odds of coming anywhere close to him are almost zero. Thinking about it makes one feel inadequate. I know that sounds pretty pathetic.

There are also some books which I don't know if your priest would recommend, but they are very good and for the most part Orthodox in thought; and they may be "interesting" enough for your daughter to read and perhaps give her that spark - C.S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters".

I have heard people recomend that book, but I avoided it because Lewis wasn't Orthodox. Maybe I'll see if the local bookstore has it.

It is very good that your wife at least will go to Church with you and the same for your daughter. I know of families that have bitter struggles on where they will go and it is a constant source of hostility for the entire family. One husband even has gone so far as to feed their children food intentionally so they cannot go to communion! There are women I know that struggle all the time, and with 3 and 4 children; sometimes you look at them and they look like death warmed over, and you cannot do anything but think these woman are absolute warriors! I admire them so much.

In my parish most often it seems like its the husbands who carry the water, so to speak. The wife might show up once a year for Pascha or Christmas. One hears of the conflicts you mentioned. I think it must be a common problem.

St. John the Chrysostom says that if you want to save your wife then first save yourself. If your wife sees the transformation in you and the change in your heart where anger is turned into love and you never stop giving yourself, first to the Lord and then to her, if she wants this for herself, heaven on earth, then she will naturally follow. So I would encourage your family when and where you can without pushing them, the Holy Spirit really must awaken their hearts and pushing them only hardens hearts.

What you say here is true and I accept that the responsibility is mine, but I admit that I'm not very good at it. Its not like I already know what I'm doing and merely have to help them. After two years, I'm running out of energy. Now I have to worry about keeping myself on track.

But doing this is hard if we don't have the right motivation! We must have come to recognize Christ's love for us so that we can in turn, love Him back, and there we have the motivation for everything. How does one come to love Christ? Well there are of course many thoughts on this but I would say is coming to know the Truth; if we know the truth about ourselves and about Him, and this world, we cannot but help love him!

Yes, motivation, but also knowing what to do. So far my efforts have been 80% motivation and 20% knowing what to do. Its not working and other factors beyond my control are making it worse.

And so everything, ever step of the way is done with prayer. If we don't pray then we are starving ourselves of everything. Everything should be done with prayer first. When you get into your car say a prayer, and when you arrive, say a prayer.

I've been praying about this for about six months. I probably should started taking action previously. But I have to deal with the situation now. Nothing can be done about spilled milk.

I have rambled mostly, so forgive me for the disjointed thoughts.

Not at all. Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughtful comments.

patrick

Re: understanding

Post by patrick »

SPYRIDON wrote:

my dear friend sit and talk with your priest even if you think his emigrancy and failure to understand or speak english well.he has been put in your life for a reason,The Holy Spirit will allow for him to understand and guide you and pray for you and bless you and all your Family..as for the other priest trying to invite you to other Jurisdictions this could be another
trick to confuse you and your family even more,ask God and with all your heart for guidance and protection and get yourself The Icon of St.John of Shanghai and San Francisco,and ask him for intercession to God for the same.I can send you an Icon of St.John thats Been Blessed at his Relics on top of his Coffin in San Francisco...until then seek a Book called ON THE LAW OF GOD,By METROPOLITAN PHILARET of Blessed Memory....or get " Turning the Heart to God"-by St Theophan The Recluse,its I think an easier to understand version of Path to Salvation

Thank you. I will think about what you have said. After thinking about this for the past weeks, one fear stopping me from going to my priest is that if it doesn't go well because of the language situation then I may feel like I need to leave the parish amd look for another. Maybe that's not a problem in most cases, but this was where I converted and I feel loyal to the parish. We like Father because he is very good with the liturgy and he's a good and kind man. I can't help but feel like I would be letting people down since the parish is very small and if we leave it would only make things more difficult for those who remain. In a bigger parish it would be easier since we would be somewhat anonymous and our leaving would not be noticed much. Of course, I'm not thinking that the survival of the parish depends on us, but sometimes there's only 12 people on non-feast day liturgies and if three leave, I think that's significant.

Doesn't seem to be any clean or risk-free solution. I will keep praying and thinking about it. Maybe God will clarify things.

Post Reply