Iconophili's Great Big Thread of Conspiracies!

[George Australia]

What is the big deal here, anyway?

There isn't a big deal.

Why the jollies derived from playing the pedant?

Cheesefare Week is Carnival week in the Greek tradition.

It seems out of character for you who, in the past, normally have been a forgiving, courteous forum member.

Forgive me if I been unforgiving and discourteous. All of you are correct: let's get this thread back on track to discussing the evil conspiracies of the wicked Jews and their plans for world domination- that would be much more profitable and edifying for us all.

[CGW]

the truth is that New World Order or New Order of the Ages (Novus Ordo Seclorum) along with Out of many One (E'Pluribus Unum) are in fact Constitutional names of the US (Read the Constitution and check out the Great Seal).

Well, I read the constitution and nobody should be surprised that it says no such thing. And looking at various websites, including this Wikipedia article it seems unlikely that masons had anything to do with the seal at the time. Charles Thomson was not a mason, after all, and the phrase is adapted from a poem by Virgil.

[AndyHolland]

CGW - your right as usual, but only half right - its not in but rather on the Constitution.

It was from the first continental congress and dates from 1776. It is affixed to the Constitution and all other documents including Treaties, which carry the weight of Constitutional law. Its official use began in 1782. In other words, its the name of the nation and dates from the revolution, not the Consitution.

For example see
http://www.usscouts.org/flag/sealmotto.html

Check out the back of the dollar bill.

andy holland
sinner

[CGW]

You are not reading carefully. The very page to which you have linked gives the date of the seal as 1782, not 1776, and also says the following:

Did freemasonry influence the Great Seal designs?

Because membership records for the Revolutionary period are scattered and imperfect, it is not possible to answer this with complete certainty. There is no evidence that the final designers of the Great Seal, Charles Thomson or Philadelphia William Barton, were Masons. It is more likely that the seal designers of the Great Seal and the Masons took their symbols from parallel sources.

Bouncing around (and trying to avoid the conspiracy sites) I can find references to at most two members of the continental congress as masons: Franklin and Hancock.

Also, your usage of the phrase "constitutional law" is eccentric. As you use it, any law-- as opposed to regulatory instructions or executive orders-- is "constitutional". The fact remains that the constitution itself doesn't say anything about the seal or its various mottos.

[AndyHolland]

CGW - you are right as usual - except it is the name of the nation because the Constitution is Sealed with it. All our treaties are sealed with it. Again it is on the Constitution just as the names of the signers are on it. It is the name of the nation.

My understanding is that there were only two or three signers who were not known masons.

andy holland
sinner

[Ebor]

Well, I'm still curious as to which of the definitions of "heathen" apply to me for stating that human beings had shorter lifespans, on average, in the past:

"a person who does not acknowledge your god"
"(not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam)"
both from
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/

or "Heathen: Originally people of the heath or moor. Originally, it was a Christian term to denigrate followers of the old, pre-Christian Religion."
from http://www.religioustolerance.org/gl_h.htm

or "Heathen: Literally means "heath-dweller", and refers to practitioners of the Norse pagan faith."
from http://www.winterscapes.com/uppsala/glossary.htm

Since I do acknowledge the God of Christianity, don't live on a heath and do not practice the "Norse Pagan faith". I do not see how the label of "heathen" applies.

Ebor

[CGW]

CGW - you are right as usual - except it is the name of the nation because the Constitution is Sealed with it. All our treaties are sealed with it. Again it is on the Constitution just as the names of the signers are on it. It is the name of the nation.

There is no seal on the constitution, and your interpretation of "sealing" as applying the various texts as names for the country is eccentric and implausible. On the Seal of the State of Maryland, for example, among other phrases is the text "Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine" (which literally translated means "manly deeds, womanly words", or very freely, "Walk softly and carry a big stick"). Is this the name of the state? No. It's just a motto. Neither is the quotation from Psalm 5, nor the title and stylings of Lord Baltimore (which strictly speaking is not the front of the seal, but for some reason we only use the back). Nor is the name of Montana "Oro y Plata", nor the name of Delaware "Liberty and Independence", nor Arizona "Ditat Deus", nor Hawaii "Ua mau ke ea o ka aina i ka pono", nor Missouri "Salus Populi Suprema Lex Esto".

And besides, Thomson's explanation of the reverse of the seal gives a meaning to the various elements, which isn't consistent with the interpretation you are attempting to apply to it.

My understanding is that there were only two or three signers who were not known masons.

I have looked at a bunch of masonic sites, and they do not claim very many founding fathers as masons. (One such site claims nine members but does not list them; another gives a list of eight names.) For now I must be very skeptical of claims about the membership of founding fathers, because it does not seem to me that the conspiracy sites have access to some source of information that the rest of us lack. I actually expected to find quite a few FFs as members, and was surprised to find as few as I did. Even the conspiracy sites have been backed down from the claim that Jefferson was a mason. Every site I've found agrees that Charles Thomson was not a mason, and it is he who is largely responsible for its form.

I've also found several sites that assert that masons began to use the symbology of the Great Seal some decades after the latter was introduced. Masons do show up a lot in Washington's ceremonial buildings because of Geo. Washington's membership; it is thus hardly surprising to see masonic stuff all over the Washington Monument in DC, but it also doesn't really mean anything.