Iconophili's Great Big Thread of Conspiracies!

[jacqueline]

Thank you for that post, Liudmilla. I have to say that I agree.

[AndyHolland]

The fact the thorn was grafted in modern times solves the inconsistencies. The fact that Dr. Layton reported that the bloom occurred at exactly midnight to Henry VIII. The fact that it is famous that the local people refrained from Christmas until the tree bloomed on Orthodox Christmas in the mid-1700s and the Monarchs stopped getting the bloom also is telling (made the papers of the day). I have heard the bloom on a website from a modern observation at midnight satisfy me as to the inconsistencies. Different dates for Orthodox Christmas were reported in accordance with the local dates and times. Someone might write January 6th because it occurs on midnight. You have to be careful and read with understanding.

You keep saying "fact" here, but when push comes to shove what we have are accounts, not all entirely consistent. It's not entirely clear that the current tree (or trees) at St. John's is a cutting or has been grafted. The Wikipedia article claims that current efforts at propagation only succeed through grafting but leaves open the question of whether the current tree at St. John's was so propagated. The cuttings for the queen's table are taken in the second week of December-- that is clear.

The Wikipedia vs Britannica? Come on get serious. There are several cuttings.

Let's make it simple.

Proposition:

E'Pluribus Unum Novus Ordo Seclorum has murdered 40,000,000 of my brothers and sisters since Roe V Wade in accordance with the world and its morality and its enforcement of its materialistic secular propositions on our communities - in direct variance to the collective will of those communities while claiming to be of the People.

Before God and man it is guilty of crimes against God and humanity. It and its followers have forgotten the admonition of Psalm 2 (KVJ):

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Amen!

"Let God arise and judge the Earth, for to Him belong the nations!"
Jesus Christ is Lord!

Amen!

andy holland
sinner

[AndyHolland]

Dear Liudmilla,

Andy:
I have to say that as a fellow Orthodox person, (I am a cradle Orthodox) I find your absorbtion in the mythology of symbols rather disturbing. I was always taught that while it is necessary to be aware of the evil in the world, it was more important that we looked to ourselves first. By that I mean our own spiritual development,and that of our children.

Unfortunately I studied some things in my early youth that I should not have. I agree that is not a good course. On the other hand, it is important to understand one's enemy.

The end of the world, I was taught, will come in GOD's time not ours. Christians get lost in looking for the end and thereby lose themselves in the process. You cannot worry about the end, you must think about the now and ask yourself are you ready to meet your make at this moment? That is where you should be "worrying". A symbol only has as much power as YOU attribute to it.

To an extent I agree. However, the Lord explicitly commanded us to be aware of what was going on - it is the Lord who sends signs that we are to discern by faith in love. Our hope is in Him, not our discernment - but rather, seeing His grace we increase in Faith.

Jesus told our adulterous generation that he would provide the sign of Jonah. It is very valuable for many who are symbolic thinkers (mathematicians - computer types) who see patterns in their work as a process for their understanding the reality of Christ.

There is allot of liberal secular "education" to overcome.

I have a small story to relate to you. I hope it helps. When the USA fought in Desert Storm, I was working with a young evengelical woman. All I could remember hearing was the end is here, the end is here! All based on the prophesy in Revelations. I went back and reread the entire passage and I knew that we were interpretting things in the wrong way.

This young woman was going crazy with the fear that the end was here. I took it upon myself to tell her she was wrong and that she needed to go back and re-read the whole passage, where it said wars (emphasis on plural) and rumors of wars... the next time I saw her she thanked me because she now understood that the symbology was not as she had thought and perhaps there was still time for her to make her peace in the world before the end.

I agree. We should be very careful. On the other hand, if we reckognize wickedness growing, and become disillusioned with the world, then does it make sense to be prepared?

Remember in Acts when it was foretold a famine was coming, and the people prepared? Remember Joseph in Egypt, how he saved 7 years of grain.

When we see these things, we must have faith in Jesus Christ all the more for He is our salvation. Never-the-less, when we see these things, being prepared is not unwise.

For example, I own no stock for I no longer trust the world.

I wore a star on a chain once, to me it was nothing more than a star on a chain. I happened to wear it to church one day. I cannot tell you the grief my father caught for it. It seems that this simple star, because it had five points, was the "Symbol" of communism and how dare he let his daughter wear it on her neck. That simple star had become the symbol of evil incarnate. I never could wear that stupid necklace ever again. Not because I or my father believed in it, but because my father did not want the hassle ever again.

The five pointed star is indeed an occult symbol, as is the pyramid with the all seeing eye - yet one finds that in Church Iconography! The Swastika was an occult symbol, then it became a Christian symbol, then a backwards version became a Nazis symbol!

People should not flip out over those things, on the other hand, we should be wearing the cross in order to receive communion. I have instructed my daughters to wear their crosses, and sometimes they even obey.

Context is important. Symbols have meaning only in context.

It is not for us to know when the end will come, it said that even the angels do not know when. Symbols will come and go, will change and manifest. It is for us to teach our children not to be seduced by them, to be good christians and to give to GOD and his Son what is due them before all else.

I agree and yet also disagree. We have to see where we are.

I really, honestly believed something bad was going to happen in September 2000. I was happy to live in the country away from the cities, and arrogantly thought we were safe. When nothing happened, I figured I had been foolish.

Then in September 2001, a plane called flight 93 slammed into the ground within sight of the house. So much for peace and safety!

We cannot escape the consequences of our actions and inactions. On the other hand, repentance is not a bad thing.

Pray, hope and God will take care of you.

Milla

Amen!

I certainly agree with you here! We should put our trust in God, not in princes or sons of men. We must also see however, that we are held to account - as in Psalm 2.

My children are gaining fluency in foreign languages just in case. It may be a vain thing to do, on the other hand, it can't hurt. Be prepared!

Also, lightening the load of material possessions is not a bad idea.

The second coming is in all generations - we all die and then we experience the second coming. Some like St. Stephen are blessed to experience the second coming here on Earth as they are being martyrd.

andy holland
sinner

[CGW]

I don't know which edition of the Brittanica to which you refer. If you had read the Wikipedia article you would discover that it refers to events as recently as 1991. I myself am a little wary of the Wiki article because it's not at all clear where its information comes from. The 1911 Britannica which is commonly seen online seems to have scant to say, and is dated in any case; the "current" Britannica online unfortunately has almost nothing to say in the concise section. Much of what you say seems to come from the Catholic Encyclopedia, but as it is many decades old it too cannot speak to the present condition of the thorn.

You will get no argument from me that abortion is not a great evil, but at that point there is nothing more to discuss. There are too many great evils in the world over too many centuries.

[AndyHolland]

Yes there are a great many evils in the world, and the 2nd Psalm is very instructive with regard to the Separation of Church and State that is inherent in western christianity.

"Judge a tree by its fruit"

andy holland
sinner

[Liudmilla]

Andy:

You wrote:

being prepared is not unwise

I think you are half wrong here. We must prepare to make an account of ourselves before our maker. That is most important of all. Being prepared for the evil to come without preparing your soul is futile. By all means prepare your family to live in this world but you must do it in the "now" of your life. If you are prepared for the "now" then you will be prepared for whatever will come your way, be it good or bad. Don't try to second guess GOD , it's as He will Will it.

As to the necklace....wearing it never detered me from wearing my cross. I was taught that my cross was not for display, it was for my protection. I never wore it as an "ornament". As a point of fact, I wear mine always, I never take it off ...not even to shower. When necessary I will pin it to my under garments, but I am NEVER without it. My chain is long enough to place the cross close to my heart.

I remember as a young person, I had my chain pulled out and laying on my chest, my spritual father took it and dropped it behind my clothes. He said it was my secret and not for display. It is better to accustom your children to wearing their cross at all times, whether it is suspended from a ribbon or from a chain. It will not injure then, it will not choke them, but it will most certainly protect them.

My nephew was about 14 when a physEd teacher instructed him to remove his cross for gym. He very firmly refused and told the teacher that he should call his mother, He repeated this several times, each time refusing the teacher's order. He was finally sent to the principle's office where this was again repeated. He was finally allowed to keep his cross on as long as it was taped to his chest and not dangling. I suspect that the principal did not want to tangle with my sister, who was/is rather "assertive". Allowing my nephew to continue wearing the cross did not save him from a thorough tongue lashing from my sister. I believe the school board actually changed the rules to allow the wearing of a cross, as long as it was taped to the chest. As to my nephew, I suspect that he felt the backlash from his mother for removing his cross would be worse than anything the school could dish out.. :mrgreen:

If taught to defend their faith, children will actually do a better job than we adults ever could do.

Live for today Andy, take what GOD gives you today and thank him for it, let tomorrow come when it may, for it will come........someday.

Milla

[AndyHolland]

Dear Liudmilla,

I certainly agree we should live today, that there are enough worries in the present.

Healthy, balanced disillusionment with the world is not a bad idea either. Please understand that allot of the Protestant drag encompasses the nation - a belief system that exalts the status quo of the current nation. Psalm 2 and other Scriptural passages remind us there is a proper way for Kings and Judges to act with respect to the Lord and His Christ.

IMHO a strong case could be made that Duns-Scotus/Martin Luther separation of Church and State is a form of Iconoclast heresy - denying the fullness of the Incarnation and totality of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. It is a compromise with a world that is murdering our brothers and sisters.

Finally, I hope I have not given the impression I know when or if anything specific will happen - only that on our present course, the situation is bad - on that we all seem to agree. Repentance and conversion are always possible, remember St. Constantine? Simply tracing a bad situation to a root cause is not unhealthy or unnatural - I hope.

andy holland
sinner
PS. I am allot more than half wrong!