8th Ecumenical Council?

[Myrrh]

An interestnig thing is brought out in that Encyclical. I thought that the custom of unleavened bread in the west was ancient compared to the schism? Does anyone know if that is true?

I read somewhere that it came into existence in the 8th c in the West, haven't been able to find yet how or why.

If that is true, why does it become a problem later because one is in essence anathematizing those before 1054. And with regard to 1054, the Pope's legates anathematized the Patriarch and the Patriarch the papal legates. Technically the anathemas were not between the entire Orthodox nor the entire Church in the West.

So why were ancient christian traditions anathematized?

andy holland
sinner

I thought I'd have time this weekend to look through some articles I'd book marked, but....

I don't think St Photios et al condemned azymite use, it was mentioned in the Bull of excommunication against that Constantinople had changed the use to leavened - the history of its appearance in the West having been lost to the delegates. They also made accusation that Constantinople allowed priests to marry, again not accurate.

I think this idea that's being bandied about that "technically" is a bit off - if a patriarch or pope is anathematised then all who continue with him come under the same anathema. I think it's part of the "mutual lifting of anathemas" scenario and the general re-establishment of friendship between Orthodox and Rome, but especially between the still beleagured Constantinople and Rome. I do think it's wrong to sacrifice the truth of the arguments which created the Schism for temporary diplomatic relations - getting support on the world stage for the EP is one thing, but in doing so it's allowed him to acquire the mind set of the roman primacy claim himself. It's telling I think that the laity lost their case against him in the US courts because the judiciary didn't understand Orthodox ecclesiology.

I've just found this which mentions that all Prozymites were anathematised.
http://www.stjohndc.org/russian/OrthHtrdx/e_P04.htm

Myrrh

[Myrrh]

[] It's funny you should bring this up, last year my Greek friend told me of Propheices, about the 8th Council, he said they'll be a Fasle 8th Council, called to create a "one world religion, but God will stop it, by allowing World War 3 to happen, after that The Emperor Of The Roman Empire who rulled in the first half of the 13th Century will come bake to life and Call a Real "Holy" 8th Council and Orthodoxy will spread to the East and West, he said the Prophecies say the Pope will no longer exist and they'll be a Ortodox Partiarch for Western Europe, after about a Generation, he sai the Propecies say the ANtiChrist will then come.

There's also St Malachy's prophecy about the last ten popes:

http://www.bibleprobe.com/last10popes.htm

Myrrh

[ICONOPHILI]

[] It's funny you should bring this up, last year my Greek friend told me of Propheices, about the 8th Council, he said they'll be a Fasle 8th Council, called to create a "one world religion, but God will stop it, by allowing World War 3 to happen, after that The Emperor Of The Roman Empire who rulled in the first half of the 13th Century will come bake to life and Call a Real "Holy" 8th Council and Orthodoxy will spread to the East and West, he said the Prophecies say the Pope will no longer exist and they'll be a Ortodox Partiarch for Western Europe, after about a Generation, he sai the Propecies say the ANtiChrist will then come.

There's also St Malachy's prophecy about the last ten popes:

http://www.bibleprobe.com/last10popes.htm

Myrrh

This is a non-Orthodox person, and this is not the Prophecies my friend was talking about he was talking about Prophecies from "Orthodox Saints"

[Myrrh]

This is a non-Orthodox person, and this is not the Prophecies my friend was talking about he was talking about Prophecies from "Orthodox Saints"

I put it in for interest because their prophecy shows the next pope will be the last which could be read as papal supremacy claim ceases to exist after that.

But anyway, the real eighth has already been and that was proceeded by a false eighth in which St Photios was anathematised and this was because Rome began claiming that its popes were the head of the universal Church and all their dogmas since have built on that. Claiming that all secular power is under the control of the popes. Vatican II presents a different emphasis, that those outside of the immediate Roman Catholic Church can be saved, but it explains this by saying they are in "imperfect communion" with it. In other words, they're still claiming that the RCC is the only Church.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the prophecy you've told us about can't be a future one because the real one exists, all future ecumenical councils calling themselves eighth will be false.

The explanation I was looking for earlier is that in the joint declaration from the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI when they lifted the anathemas consigning them into oblivion they also suggested the previous fathers were wrong so of course this includes St Photios who is one of the Three Pillars of Orthodoxy.

This consignment into oblivion seems to includes the previous history of the real eighth ecumenical council in which Photios and John VIII agreed that papal supremacy claims were nonsense and agreed that the filioque addition was wrong.

It seems the common declaration itself has also been consigned to oblivion - it doesn't show up in searches of the Vatican site, which return a couple of documents about it but not the actual declaration itself.

However, this page from the US Catholic Bishops does refer to the consignment into oblivion: http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2000/00-248.shtml

"The meeting between Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI in Jerusalem in 1964 was followed by the formal lifting of the 1054 anathemas on December 7, 1965. Those excommunications were reversed, to be replaced by relationships of love -- they were "erased from the memory of the Church" and "consigned to oblivion."

OK, I've finally found it, it's called the Joint Declaration:

JOINT CATHOLIC-ORTHODOX DECLARATION
OF HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI
AND THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH ATHENAGORAS I

DECEMBER 7, 1965

Following is the text of the joint Catholic-Orthodox declaration, approved by Pope Paul VI and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople, read simultaneously (Dec. 7) at a public meeting of the ecumenical council in Rome and at a special ceremony in Istanbul. The declaration concerns the Catholic-Orthodox exchange of excommunications in 1054.

1. Grateful to God, who mercifully favored them with a fraternal meeting at those holy places where the mystery of salvation was accomplished through the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and where the Church was born through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I have not lost sight of the determination each then felt to omit nothing thereafter which charity might inspire and which could facilitate the development of the fraternal relations thus taken up between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Constantinople. They are persuaded that in acting this way, they are responding to the call of that divine grace which today is leading the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, as well as all Christians, to overcome their differences in order to be again "one" as the Lord Jesus asked of His Father for them.

2. Among the obstacles along the road of the development of these fraternal relations of confidence and esteem, there is the memory of the decisions, actions and painful incidents which in 1054 resulted in the sentence of excommunication leveled against the Patriarch Michael Cerularius and two other persons by the legate of the Roman See under the leadership of Cardinal Humbertus, legates who then became the object of a similar sentence pronounced by the patriarch and the Synod of Constantinople.

3. One cannot pretend that these events were not what they were during this very troubled period of history. Today, however, they have been judged more fairly and serenely. Thus it is important to recognize the excesses which accompanied them and later led to consequences which, insofar as we can judge, went much further than their authors had intended and foreseen. They had directed their censures against the persons concerned and not the Churches. These censures were not intended to break ecclesiastical communion between the Sees of Rome and Constantinople.

4. Since they are certain that they express the common desire for justice and the unanimous sentiment of charity which moves the faithful, and since they recall the command of the Lord: "If you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brethren has something against you, leave your gift before the altar and go first be reconciled to your brother" (Matt. 5:23-24), Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I with his synod, in common agreement, declare that:

A. They regret the offensive words, the reproaches without foundation, and the reprehensible gestures which, on both sides, have marked or accompanied the sad events of this period.

B. They likewise regret and remove both from memory and from the midst of the Church the sentences of excommunication which followed these events, the memory of which has influenced actions up to our day and has hindered closer relations in charity; and they commit these excommunications to oblivion.

C. Finally, they deplore the preceding and later vexing events which, under the influence of various factors—among which, lack of understanding and mutual trust—eventually led to the effective rupture of ecclesiastical communion.

1. Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I with his synod realize that this gesture of justice and mutual pardon is not sufficient to end both old and more recent differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Through the action of the Holy Spirit those differences will be overcome through cleansing of hearts, through regret for historical wrongs, and through an efficacious determination to arrive at a common understanding and expression of the faith of the Apostles and its demands.

They hope, nevertheless, that this act will be pleasing to God, who is prompt to pardon us when we pardon each other. They hope that the whole Christian world, especially the entire Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will appreciate this gesture as an expression of a sincere desire shared in common for reconciliation, and as an invitation to follow out in a spirit of trust, esteem and mutual charity the dialogue which, with Gods help, will lead to living together again, for the greater good of souls and the coming of the kingdom of God, in that full communion of faith, fraternal accord and sacramental life which existed among them during the first thousand years of the life of the Church.

.....................

4C brushes away the history of the false and real Eighth Ecumenical Council.

Myrrh

[ICONOPHILI]

This is a non-Orthodox person, and this is not the Prophecies my friend was talking about he was talking about Prophecies from "Orthodox Saints"

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the prophecy you've told us about can't be a future one because the real one exists, all future ecumenical councils calling themselves eighth will be false.

Myrrh

Are You Orthodox, because your are really scaring me, I have The Pillars Of Orthodoxy Right in front of me now, It's a Brownish/Burgandy Book with Gold Writting, Please show me which (I know there's no 8th Council that happended, but for arguments sake I'll go along with ytour saying for now) Chapter/Page it says St.Photis and the 8th Council was called to Anethemia Rome?, I have seen with my eyes these Orthodox Prophecies I'm talking about, have you ever heard of "PANAGOPOULOS" he's a famous Greek Lay person, in 1959 or in the early 60's he came across papers of a book with all these Orthodox Prophecies written in "Anceint Greek" he latter had them translated into modern Greek, and I found out it's being translated into English. The person called "Peter Alban Heers" who wrote the "Introduction To The English Edition, Of The Life Of Blessed Father Cosmas Of Grigoriou, Apostle To Zaire" knows the person, who's translating those Prophecies into English, The Prophecies are by, 1. St. Andrew Fool For Christ, 2. St.Kosmas Of Atollas, 3. St. Leo The Wise 4. St. Methodios Of Patara, 5. St. Tarasus, 6. There's also the Prophecy on the Tomb of St. Constintine The Great, and There's alson the Prophecy from an Anonymous Saint who lived in 1053 1 Year before Rome broke from Orthodoxy, they say they'll be a Huge War between Russia and 6 nations from the west, for Constantinople, after the first 3 days Russia will defeat the 6 nations, then Russia will go into the Middle East and take everything from these "western powers" then after 5 months these western Powers will launck Nuclear weapons for the Russian Troops in the Mideast and Russia will launch back and after 3 days of war, The Archangel Micheal, will stop the war and God will show people to acsept his Humble freind which will be The Emperor "Iyannis" who rulled The Roman (Byzantine) Empire in the First half of the 13th Centuiry, and He will call The 8th Coouncil in Constantinople, and The West will be back Orthodox, and He will Reconcill the Slavic nations with Russia, and he will Rule for One Generation, after that he will died of Old age and people will become more sinful than erer in the history of the world and all these political factions will fight for poewer and they'll be chaos, then at this time The False Prophret and AantiChrist will make thire appearance, I'll try and find these prophecies on the net, so you wont think I'm making this up.

[Myrrh]

This is a non-Orthodox person, and this is not the Prophecies my friend was talking about he was talking about Prophecies from "Orthodox Saints"

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the prophecy you've told us about can't be a future one because the real one exists, all future ecumenical councils calling themselves eighth will be false.

Myrrh

Are You Orthodox, because your are really scaring me, I have The Pillars Of Orthodoxy Right in front of me now, It's a Brownish/Burgandy Book with Gold Writting, Please show me which (I know there's no 8th Council that happended, but for arguments sake I'll go along with ytour saying for now) Chapter/Page it says St.Photis and the 8th Council was called to Anethemia Rome?,

Sorry, not sure what you're asking here, or what exactly you're worried about. Constantinople and Rome mutually lifted the anathemas of 1054, and consigned them to oblivion, but in doing so they cast a slur on the whole history of the argument which began around Photios' time. And I've shown that , ah OK, I didn't make it clear where the "link" was to. In my first post in this discussion I posted from the Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs, 1848
A Reply to the Epistle of Pope Pius IX, "to the Easterns"

"xi. It [filioque] was subjected to anathema, as a novelty and augmentation of the Creed, by the eighth Ecumenical Council, congregated at Constantinople for the pacification of the Eastern and Western Churches."

"..the Papacy. Some of the Bishops of that City, styled Popes, for example Leo III and John VIII, did indeed, as has been said, denounce the innovation, and published the denunciation to the world, the former by those silver plates, the latter by his letter to the holy Photius at the eighth Ecumenical Council, ..."

You can read the whole thing here: http://www.esphigmenou.com/What%20the%2 ... gmenou.htm

It was sent from the Patriarchs and synods of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. So in 1848 it was understood by all these Orthodox that there was an Eighth Ecumenical Council in which St Photios was involved.

I've now found the article I was looking for, you'll see in it that the first 8th was called by the emperor against Photios and it was called the 8th by them. And the second one, the real one, was also called by an emperor (all the ecumenical councils were called by emperors) and this one condemned the first 8th as false. etc. Since the eigth included the argument about papal supremacy and the filioque we wonder what the motive is for forgetting it? St Photios is one of the Three Pillars of Orthodoxy because of defending Orthdoxy in the 8th Ecumenical Council.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/tex ... ncils.html

I have seen with my eyes these Orthodox Prophecies I'm talking about, have you ever heard of "PANAGOPOULOS" he's a famous Greek Lay person, in 1959 or in the early 60's he came across papers of a book with all these Orthodox Prophecies written in "Anceint Greek" he latter had them translated into modern Greek, and I found out it's being translated into English. The person called "Peter Alban Heers" who wrote the "Introduction To The English Edition, Of The Life Of Blessed Father Cosmas Of Grigoriou, Apostle To Zaire" knows the person, who's translating those Prophecies into English, The Prophecies are by, 1. St. Andrew Fool For Christ, 2. St.Kosmas Of Atollas, 3. St. Leo The Wise 4. St. Methodios Of Patara, 5. St. Tarasus, 6. There's also the Prophecy on the Tomb of St. Constintine The Great, and There's alson the Prophecy from an Anonymous Saint who lived in 1053 1 Year before Rome broke from Orthodoxy, they say they'll be a Huge War between Russia and 6 nations from the west, for Constantinople, after the first 3 days Russia will defeat the 6 nations, then Russia will go into the Middle East and take everything from these "western powers" then after 5 months these western Powers will launck Nuclear weapons for the Russian Troops in the Mideast and Russia will launch back and after 3 days of war, The Archangel Micheal, will stop the war and God will show people to acsept his Humble freind which will be The Emperor "Iyannis" who rulled The Roman (Byzantine) Empire in the First half of the 13th Centuiry, and He will call The 8th Coouncil in Constantinople, and The West will be back Orthodox, and He will Reconcill the Slavic nations with Russia, and he will Rule for One Generation, after that he will died of Old age and people will become more sinful than erer in the history of the world and all these political factions will fight for poewer and they'll be chaos, then at this time The False Prophret and AantiChrist will make thire appearance, I'll try and find these prophecies on the net, so you wont think I'm making this up.

Oh, I don't think you're making it up! It's fascinating, but yes please if you can find more information on it.

But, the fact remains, that the Orthodox all used to accept the 8th of Photios as Ecumenical - first the Russians, then even those patriarchates who signed the 1848 Encyclical have forgotten it, since Metaxakis' time. Ah, maybe not, I think Jerusalem might still remember it as the 8th. I'll have a look over the weekend for anything else I can find on it.

Myrrh