humility and self justification

[Olympiada]

Dear Euphrosynos Cafe,
One member has asked me to keep writing here, so I am writing this for that person.
A priest wrote to me back in May that "humility and self justification go together like fire and water" from the Philokalia. He thought I was familiar with this passage, I am not, I do not own a copy of the Philokalia. I have looked for this sentence on line and can not find it. I have asked in a couple of other Orthodox discussion groups as well. Does anyone know where this sentence can be found in the Philokalia and if it is on line anywhere, or if not can they type it out for me here please, the paragraph? It is hard for me to just understand a sentence out of context.
Thanks,
Olympiada

[尼古拉前执事]

It is a good saying. When we try to self-justify ourselves, our failings, our sincs, we are being anything but humble. We must seek to be meek and humble and not justify our wrongs, our offenses, whether they were justified or nor and whether they were intended or not. Humility is so very important because we should not seek our will, but His Will and pride is a gateway sin to excusing all other sin.

[Olympiada]

Well this is why felt punched in the gut, the will, by someone much older than me and more authoritative whose words carry much force and power, even though this person has told me I am forceful!

I still would like to know where this is in the Philokalia. I will be going to church tonight and shall look in the Philokalia, hopefully it has an index, if not, could someone please tell me where I could find it?

the person who wrote that sentence to me back in May has told me to leave them alone and I have obeyed, so now I am left hanging...

What a life.

Also because of all the trouble I have been experiencing on the internet I am thinking about returning to my pre-Orthodox name. What do you all think? I am tired of trying to be Orthodox. It just is not working. I don't even know how to sign my name anymore.

Thank you for replying. The Yahoo crowd has totally villified me and I was expecting that here too.

[TomS]

Well this is why felt punched in the gut, the will, by someone much older than me and more authoritative whose words carry much force and power, even though this person has told me I am forceful!

That's normal. Those in power tend to have a problem when you stand up to THEM. They are much more comfortable when only THEY are doing the manipulating and controlling. When you exert yourself, then it is wrong.

Also because of all the trouble I have been experiencing on the internet I am thinking about returning to my pre-Orthodox name. What do you all think?

I think that you should not be so influenced by what people post to/about you on the internet. They don't KNOW you.

Now, if people ask you to not post to/about them, or if moderators of the board ask you to cool it, then you should do so. It is their board and you post at their pleasure. There is nothing wrong with questioning or objecting, just expect to get responses back that you don't like. But so what? Once again, it is only someone's opinion. And how do you know that they are not more messed up than you? Sitting in their underwear posting on an internet board may be all they have. That makes for sad, angry people.

Orthodoxy is hard. Coming from a protestant/agnostic/deist background, I still don't buy into all of it. Strictness seems to be a much needed crutch for people who need to be told how to live their lives. I don't need that. And maybe you don't either.

So. Take it slow.

Now - getting back to Deacon Nikolai's response. He is spot on. But that is just not a Christian concept. You will find similar teachings in other eastern religions. It is a good one. However, you can be meek and humble without being a doormat. This passage means "when you are wrong - admit it and do not attempt to excuse it. More importantly - learn from it and do not repeat it. Easier said than done, though.

[Olympiada]

Well this is why felt punched in the gut, the will, by someone much older than me and more authoritative whose words carry much force and power, even though this person has told me I am forceful!

That's normal. Those in power tend to have a problem when you stand up to THEM. They are much more comfortable when only THEY are doing the manipulating and controlling. When you exert yourself, then it is wrong.

That is not normal for me. Questioning authority is normal for me. I can not meet the norms of that person that is much older than me and have received devastating consequences as a result. I can not in good conscience continue to write in this forum as an Orthodox Christian so I am going to have to start using my name in the world, over which this older person has absolutely no control. It is not healthy for me to manipulate and other authority figures have told me they felt manipulated by me. Also I know as a person recovering from codependency for 13 years now that control is a pattern of co-dependence. The truth is I am powerless over people. I do not know how to reply to your sentence that exerting myself is wrong except that seems to be what this older person has written to me therefore I must accept their ending communication with me although it grieves me.

Also because of all the trouble I have been experiencing on the internet I am thinking about returning to my pre-Orthodox name. What do you all think?

I think that you should not be so influenced by what people post to/about you on the internet. They don't KNOW you.

You have no idea of the influence of what people have posted on the internet has done to me and I can not publish it except to say that I can not write in my Orthodox Christian name any more. That older person is convinced they know me and has given me extremely serious consequences because of their false convictions. I can write that as a person in the world because it is the truth.

Now, if people ask you to not post to/about them, or if moderators of the board ask you to cool it, then you should do so. It is their board and you post at their pleasure. There is nothing wrong with questioning or objecting, just expect to get responses back that you don't like. But so what? Once again, it is only someone's opinion. And how do you know that they are not more messed up than you? Sitting in their underwear posting on an internet board may be all they have. That makes for sad, angry people.

Well my writing to this older person for 4 months and 7 days after they subtly told me to stop has earned me devastating consequences to my Christian life. One person asked me not to post about them and I ceased immediately. That has not been my problem. And I have only had a problem with not being able to stop writing to two people. Now I did not trust that I could not meet the norms of many boards and suffered extremely serious consequences as a result. At the time my instincts were blocked from me due to the trauma I was experiencing. I am glad you think there is nothing wrong with questioning. I appreciate your care for me and I hope you will to continue to care for me for I am a burn victim in an emergency ward due to all the flames that have shot at me. I have no knowledge of other people's private health information nor if they are an alcoholic or addict or codependent. One person has disclosed this to me about them self, actually has published this in reply to something I questioned them about. They had allowed me to question them at point but then something broke in our relationship. There is nothing wrong with sitting in your underwear posting to an internet board. Sometimes it is hot outside other times you are just glad to shed your clothes from the world. Nobody knows what you are wearing as you write unless you tell them which is not something Christians do. I think it is better to write in your underwear then to fornicate although writing in your underwear may excite you which is a problem.

Orthodoxy is hard. Coming from a protestant/agnostic/deist background, I still don't buy into all of it. Strictness seems to be a much needed crutch for people who need to be told how to live their lives. I don't need that. And maybe you don't either.

Well I can not write as an Orthodox Christian right now, for an indefinite period of time so I am writing as a person in the world. I come from a neo-pagan/Buddhist/Rastafari background. However strictness is very important to me and always has been. That is how I raised. I do need strictness because I am very mentally gifted and I need structure as do all highly mentally gifted. I can not stand chaos it destroys me.

So. Take it slow.

Well it has been brought to a complete stop for me by a person outside my control, so as I said, I have been returned to the world as of today and I am in the world now.

Now - getting back to Deacon Nikolai's response. He is spot on. But that is just not a Christian concept. You will find similar teachings in other eastern religions. It is a good one. However, you can be meek and humble without being a doormat. This passage means "when you are wrong - admit it and do not attempt to excuse it. More importantly - learn from it and do not repeat it. Easier said than done, though.

And when you are not wrong? I have been a doormat. I have admitted where I was wrong. You should know I am not blessed to write on the internet as an Orthodox Christian in fact I am forbidden to do so, and I am writing as a woman in the world. I am facing a dilemma, can I write on this forum with my name in the world?

[jacqueline]

The problem with the internet (or even life off-line) is that whenever you put yourself out there you open yourself up to attack. (Don't play with fire if you don't want to get burned.) The internet is worse than real life because people get seduced by anonymity. Some people get on on-line and become possessed by something wicked.... they speak to people unkindly or they become boastful or overly authoritative without acknowledging there are actual human beings who are on the other end of the DSL line. These people wouldn't act like that in front of church on Sunday morning. In a lot of cases, the internet is just not a good place. Sometimes I find it helpful to take a good long break from the internet.

But don't despair too much; God knows who is a real Christian and He is the only one to worry about.

"Of course, any kind of growth and perfection demands personal effort as well. God leads and helps us and gives us all the tools to succeed, but constancy and struggle are necessary ingredients to become virtuous. These difficulties, both outer and inner, are called personal "crosses." Every Christian has to carry his personal cross if he wants to participate in his victory over evil. Salvation consists of two parts: the objective part already accomplished by Jesus Christ on the Cross, and the subjective part which consists of a personal effort to become a true Christian. About this second aspect of salvation, Jesus says: "He who follows after Me [wants to be My disciple] but does not take his cross, is not worthy of Me" (Matt. 10:38). There is nothing bleak in this carrying of one's personal cross. The Apostles, in talking about a Christian's struggle, comforted themselves and others with the words: "The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Rom. 8:17). And the more a Christian shares in Christ's sufferings, the more he will share in His glory."
http://fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/cross.htm

Take Care.
In Christ,
/jacqueline

[TomS]

I do not know how to reply to your sentence that exerting myself is wrong...

You misunderstood what I said. What I meant was that it is normal for those who have been trying to control YOU in the past to react negatively to you when YOU try to take BACK control over yourself.

I think you are RIGHT to take back control over yourself. No one should have control over you but you.

You have no idea of the influence of what people have posted on the internet has done to me...

Why do you let what others say affect/influence you? Why do you CARE what a bunch of strangers think of you? Their opinions have no control over you unless you allow them to have control over you.

Do what I do. Reject their opinions. See them for what they are -simply opinions from people who are not in position to make informed judgements/opinions.

I think it is better to write in your underwear then to fornicate although writing in your underwear may excite you which is a problem.

Why is it a problem?

That is how I raised. I do need strictness because I am very mentally gifted and I need structure as do all highly mentally gifted. I can not stand chaos it destroys me.

You think so? Then why are you fighting the strictness that the Church is trying to impose on you?

I have been returned to the world as of today and I am in the world now.

Good. This world is a gift that we have been given. Revel in this world. Enjoy it. Partake of its pleasures. God made it for us to enjoy. He gave us life to enjoy and learn. It is up to us to either make it a blessing or a curse. It is our choice.

And when you are not wrong?

Then you are not wrong. And do not let others convince you that you are wrong. Reject them and their stupid judgements and conclusions.

Live Life!

Reject the teachings of those who tell you that we are to suffer in this life. It's total nonsense made up by those who are miserable people and want to drag everyone else down to share their pitiful existance.