"UnHoly" Martyrs

Грешник · Post by **Грешник** » Wed 4 July 2007 1:47 am

How does one judge the deaths of those who die whilst members of a Synod or group that would not be considered valid? Are they martyrs? Are their lives and deaths profitable to learn of? Would you consider them a saint?

Examples:

Father Arseny - There are countless stories in the books about him that recount the lives of holy Orthodox Christians who, while members of the MP, died martyric deaths in the labor camps. Would they be considered saints?

Priests, Clergy, Laity of the MP- There are also stories of others, members of the MP who have died martyric deaths. are their lives worthy to be considered saints/martyrs.

We could say the same for those under the EP, Antiochians, Serbians, various Russian Synods.. are they or are they not saints through their giving of their lives in defense of their faith in Christ?

drewmeister2 · Post by **drewmeister2** » Wed 4 July 2007 4:26 pm

I think it is hard for us to say in such cases, but I would say yes there may be some saint-martyrs who were in the MP who died for Orthodoxy, that is up to God though what He does with such people. Schisms dont happen overnight though so there may have been some people in the MP who are saints because they were unknowingly part of a bad "church", just like there may be some Catholic saints who are in heaven who lived very close to 1054 but are still saints because of their unknowingly being in the wrong church, but in the end, we cant know for sure since they were not part of Orthodoxy as we know it.

Helen · Post by **Helen** » Thu 5 July 2007 5:43 am

I think it is hard for us to say in such cases, but I would say yes there may be some saint-martyrs who were in the MP who died for Orthodoxy, that is up to God though what He does with such people. Schisms dont happen overnight though so there may have been some people in the MP who are saints because they were unknowingly part of a bad "church", just like there may be some Catholic saints who are in heaven who lived very close to 1054 but are still saints because of their unknowingly being in the wrong church, but in the end, we cant know for sure since they were not part of Orthodoxy as we know it.

I disagree with this statement. Many MP, GOC, etc saints were knowingly within 'world' Orthodox Churches. Elder Joseph the Hysecast (hope that's the correct spelling) consciously left the Old Calendarists because of constant disputes and un-Christian behaviour within those Churches (as far as I know). Elder Tavrion consciously remained in the MP because he was concerned for it's people.
There are many other examples which at present I can't recount because I don't remember the exact details. Maybe someone else can remember other examples?

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Thu 19 July 2007 8:15 pm

How does one judge the deaths of those who die whilst members of a Synod or group that would not be considered valid?

"One" does not judge, God does. When we die and face the demons of the air, it will not be according to whether those who died before us were saints or not...it will be according to how WE JUDGE others.

We should look within ourselves and not worry about who is or is not a saint. We know who the holy fathers are and we should follow their examples and teachings.

To absorb ourselves with the concerns of saintly technicalities is not a benefit for our salvation. It is a distraction put in our minds so that we will waste our spiritual energy and it is a dangerous trap of becoming judgemental of other's lives, whom we have never met.

In Christ, Joanna

buzuxi · Post by **buzuxi** » Sun 28 October 2007 3:37 am

St. Isaac the Syrian is a great Orthodox saint yet he wasnt Orthodox. St Isaac was a Nestorian of the 7th century.

Helen · Post by **Helen** » Mon 29 October 2007 4:43 am

Buzuxi, not meaning to dispute, but could you elaborate on your statement - I'd like to know more about it.

buzuxi · Post by **buzuxi** » Mon 29 October 2007 4:49 pm

Helen wrote:
Buzuxi, not meaning to dispute, but could you elaborate on your statement - I'd like to know more about it.

He came from Qatar and wrote while a monk at an Iranian Monastery Rabban under the Assyrian Church of the East (nestorian). Was even ordained the bishop of Nineveh (a nestorian bishopric in what is modern day Mosul Iraq).
His writings are found in syriac and arabic, then translated to greek at most likely the the St Saaba Monastery in Jerusalem, then from greek to russian.

here is some of his sayings:

http://www.roca.org/OA/137/137d.htm