How Does One Explain Our Division to Inquirers?

[Justin Kissel]

"United we stand, divided we..." ...maintain the pure faith?

I'm at a loss how to explain Orthodoxy to inquirers at this point. The waters are so muddy, I can hardly figure out myself what is going on, let alone explain it to someone outside of Orthodoxy looking in. Let me illustrate with a typical conversation:

Justin: Orthodox is one, we are unified in one faith, one teaching, one truth: together in the theanthropic body of Christ, with Christ as our head.

Inquirer: But you aren't all in communion with one another? Like you and Antioch aren't in communion?

Justin: Well, no... you see, they have deviated from the faith, so we are keeping our distance.

Inquirer: How many Orthodox have deviated? How many people are you keeping your distance from?

Justin: Being truthful... probably about 80-90%.

Inquirer: So you think that the majority are wrong... so how can you have one faith? one Church? if you are the same church then why not be in communion? Are you saying that 80-90% of those who claim to be Orthodox are actually outside the Church?

Justin: Well, it's complicated... see, some of them we don't think are heretical, we just think they are going the wrong direction. And others, we don't really know. We don't say that they're outside the Church, but we don't really know what to make of it. We say that they are in the Church and that they have valid sacraments... we just don't know for how long they will be in the Church, and we are worried. So we don't have communion with them.

Inquirer: So who's right? You or them? That is, which should I join?

See, here's where it starts breaking down even further. I had this problem as I was reading over at oc.net today. An inquirer asked about Orthodox resources. I was tempted to warn them to avoid the Fr. Hopko stuff and Bp. Kallistos stuff, and just use other material... but what will that accomplish? At best, it will make Orthodoxy look fractured, and like we fight amongst ourselves and are bitter and harsh with each other.

Oh, wait, we are

Anyway, perhaps a worse situation is that I say something (ie. like avoiding Fr. Hopko--not because he's heretical, but just because there's much better material), and getting caricatured as part of the "fringe," who are harsh and aren't really Orthodox and are just people with a lot of "Protestant baggage". If this happens, the person may very well avoid all traditionalist material, and so any chance at helping them see a more conservative side of Orthodoxy might be lost.

Is the answer "we follow the truth"? Well, but that's exactly what every Protestant sect says. Perhaps the answer really does lie in epistemology/gnosiology. But will they stay around long enough to read such Orthodox information when they see all of our bickering and division?

[尼古拉前执事]

Back when I was inquiring in to Orthodoxy 8-9 years ago or so, if I had a better understanding of the divisions and WHY they exist, I might have continued going to an Orthodox Church. But instead when the priest could no longer come into town for classes and liturgies, I was too confused by the separations.

Instead I studied on my own and learned why there were seperations. I still have no idea which of the many Ukrainian Orthodox Churches the priest I was studying under was, but he ingrained me with a love of Orthodoxy that stayed with me all that time. I thank him for that, but only wish he had better explained why there were separations and the importance of WHY it was done.

So yes people have to be confronted with it up front at first and explained why things are as they are.

[rebecca]

I know Catholics who say that one of their biggest problems with Orthodoxy is the division, not to mention the widespread ethnic component in America. They argue that if America had one Orthodox governing body (maybe with various ethnic parishes as needed), we'd be a lot better off. I can see how we could come off as petty and ethnic to inquirers, especially Catholics. You should be able to walk into any Orthodox church in America, and know that they stand for the same things as you do, and be able to participate fully and take Communion with a clear conscience. :ohvey:

Has there ever been this much of a political and philosopical division historically?

[Justin Kissel]

Most of the time, yes. Even in the New Testament we can see this... we read it knowing that Paul, John, etc. (those who condemning other groups claiming to be Christian) are right, and the people they speak against are wrong, but at the time it wasn't quite as easy to see. It's the same thing in every generation... it's easy looking in hindsight and saying "this is who was right," but it's difficult to do so when you are right in the middle of it. I've been reading a book that discusses the 2nd ecumenical council, for instance, and it's amazing how many different perspectives and views were being put forth as the most sensible one (and not just between sinners... even the saints "fought" amongst themselves sometimes). I guess the problem I have with the current divisions is that we seem to make them larger and more apparent than need be.

[Natasha]

I said it before, and I will say it again-what is wrong with an "ethnic component"?!?

[Justin Kissel]

Nothing. Except that when you run out of people from that ethnicity (or people who wish to hold on to the culture of that ethnicity), you should expect your church to die.

As for me, I'm an American (only sojourning in ROCOR since she is one of the few places where I can worship with a clean conscience). I look forward to an American Church. I won't try to change the ROCOR into that American Church since it has no desire to "Americanize," and wishes to hold on to her Russian roots. That's great, I hope ROCOR all the success she can get in our upside-down times. I, on the other hand, hope to someday be in a church of my ethnicity and culture: American. I don't understand why it's easy for me to accept a Russian Church in America, but so many people have a problem with an American Church in America. shrugs

Justin

PS. When I said about the Churches, dying, I said that in sadness. Here in western Pennsylvania I've seen a number of Churches that have maybe 20 or 30 people attend on Sunday mornings. I'm very sorry that, within a couple decades, these Churches will be either closed down, torn down, or (worse) sold to heterodox.

[Natasha]

"...an American Church in America..."
Exactly what the OCA has attempted to do. It seems to me that when you have a conscious effort to build an American Orthodox Church, it becomes a mismash of Russian custom, selected tradition, and Protestant influence.
I do agree with you that there are not enough Russian-American people who wish to hold onto the culture of that ethnicity-(how I envy the Greeks!)
So, Paradosis, I have to ask, what is your vision of an American Orthodox Church?