Father Seraphim Rose

[Anastasios]

Dear Catherine,

Firstly, you are entitled to your opinion, and this is a message board, so I won't get offended that you don't agree with me I think that we are mixing some points together though that I'd like to separate for the sake of clarity.

1) I don't think Fr Seraphim should be glorified as a saint for various reasons, but if he were, I would not be opposed to it, either.

2) I agree that he took on more fame because he was an American who converted to Orthodoxy; this is a natural human emotion to admire that which is different. However, I also have to admire that Fr Seraphim, far from being one of those converts that becomes anti-ethnic, labored hard to get Orthodox materials in to Russia for the believers there that could not get Orthodox materials easily. I don't see Fr Seraphim as "an American" or "a convert" but rather as an Orthodox monk only.

3) I agree that we should go to the original sources, and so I don't disagree with you that a Russian might not be as interested in Fr Seraphim, and I think that's normal, and yes of course his mission was to Americans; after all, God created him to be born in America. Culture does play a role. For whatever reason, I am more naturally attracted to things Greek than Russian, for instance. I don't know why, but I much more enjoy reading the Lives of people like St Cosmas the Aitolian, Elder Hieronymos of Aegina, St Nectarios, etc....but that's not to say that I don't profit from the Optina Elders, etc...I do. But I have preferences for whatever reason. I also think that the promotion of Fr Seraphim is cultic in America; who was the real Fr Seraphim anyway? We have two renditions of Not of this World that present him in two very different ways, but the second edition doesn't convince me it is any more accurate than the first; and we have the book by his relative (who also did a biography of the rapper Tupac Shakur; so everyone is colored by one's experiences and motives). For these reasons I am not an active Fr Seraphim supporter, but I do get some inspiration from him. His Soul After Death was one writing that helped me move from the Eastern Rite Catholic Church to Orthodoxy.

4) My only objection to your post, and the only part that I would encourage you to rethink, is the covering up of his face and refusal to read his writings just because he USED to be a homosexual BEFORE he was Orthodox. That's the only part I thought was wrong.

So I hope I've clarified my position a bit more and you understand that for the most part, I agree with you.

Fr A.

[jgress]

Yes, I agree with Father A., that to be scandalized by someone's behavior, no matter how sinful or criminal, before receiving baptismal Grace and the remission of all sins (which Fr Seraphim received when he was chrismated by the ROCA, which by economy poured healing Grace into his heretical baptism), betrays a lack of faith in the redemptive and regenerative powers of baptism. Please be careful, Catherine!

Note this is completely aside from the question of whether Fr Seraphim should be venerated as a Saint, something which I am not qualified to judge. Personally, I do not venerate him as a saint, but I value most of his writings as edifying.

[Pravoslavnik]

Catherine,

Code: Select all

   Not be needlessly contentious about Father Seraphim Rose, but I do have a few questions regarding clarification of your recent criticisms of the man.  One of your specific comments, for example, was that Father Seraphim "had not written anything new."

   My former spiritual Father, who had been a close fiend and disciple of Father Seraphim Rose, once told me that there is very little that is ever really "new" in true Orthodox theoria.  (In retrospect, he was encouraging me, a somewhat arrogant Ivy League graduate, to have a more humble attitude toward traditional Patristic wisdom.)  The Church has carefully guarded and preserved the eternal truths that have been Hers during the past two thousand years.  In fact, during the past millenium, I believe only two Orthodox saints have ever been called "Theologian" by the Church-- St. Symeon the New Theologion, and St. Gregory Palamas.    Hence, in a sense, any contemporary Orthodox writer offering something "new" would perhaps rightly incur more suspicion than praise from the Church.

      As for Father Seraphim Rose, have you read any of his books?[i][u] Heavenly Realm[/u][/i]?    [i][u]Russia's Catacomb Saints?[/u][/i] (Hardly a flattering poryral of the Moscow Patriarchate there!)   [i][u]Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future?[/u][/i]   [i][u]The Soul After Death? [/u][/i](writtten in response to a misleading Protestant bestseller in the 1980s entitled [i][u]Life After Life[/u][/i] by Orville Moody, a Virginia psychiatrist.)  Most of Father Seraphim's publications are commentaries on Patristic teachings about various matters-- from Islam to UFOs-- as they would be applied to modern contexts.  Some of his works are also commentaries on lives of the saints-- such as [i][u]Russia's Catacomb Saints[/u][/i] and the [i][u]Life of St. John Maximovitch[/u][/i].  Certainly none of his writings involve a radical (or even minor) departure from traditional Pastristic thinking-- but he does applies Orthodox Patristics to the analysis of modern issues.

     Father Seraphim also edited and published several scholarly Russian texts by hierarchs and faculty at the ROCOR Holy Trinity Seminary-- including the [i][u]Orthodox Dogmatic Theology[/u][/i] of Fr. Michael Pomazansky, and Dr. Ivan Andreyev's [i][u]Orthodox Apologetics.[/u][/i]  All in all, a remarkable life of fruitful labor in the Lord's vineyard.

[Anastasios]

Well, I hope we don't make Catherine feel like she's on the defensive here. Let's wait for her to answer even one of the posts before we pile on more. I imagine that it must feel overwhelming, especially since we have been in a lull for over a year, and now there is suddenly so much more activity!

I don't think that Catherine has to justify herself for why she doesn't read Fr Seraphim's writings, but if she wants to engage the questions I think we could have a profitable conversation. Catherine, it's up to you. I won't think bad of you if you decide not to discuss your personal feelings on the matter!

[joasia]

Otherwise, he said, there was not much, if anything, new in Fr Seraphim's writing.
In short not special for someone already in the Church who has read those original writings in Russian which Fr Seraphim quoted. He said he himself would only read the Optina Elders, St Theophan and all the Russian Saints' writings. He said that Fr Seraphim's writings were entry level, so why not go to the original sources?

It's understandable that for someone in America who has never seen a real Russian Orthodox monk, the sight of Fr Seraphim might have been revelatory. But that's why I argue that his example is mainly for those here.

And for that reason, Fr. Seraphim did express traditional views of Orthodoxy, because he didn’t expound a new idea as so many today are doing. And because he did speak to the modern day laity in a way that could help us understand the meaning about what the Russian saints said.

Fr. Anastasios wrote:

Well, I hope we don't make Catherine feel like she's on the defensive here. Let's wait for her to answer even one of the posts before we pile on more. I imagine that it must feel overwhelming, especially since we have been in a lull for over a year, and now there is suddenly so much more activity!

I don't think that Catherine has to justify herself for why she doesn't read Fr Seraphim's writings, but if she wants to engage the questions I think we could have a profitable conversation. Catherine, it's up to you. I won't think bad of you if you decide not to discuss your personal feelings on the matter

!

I don’t think she has a problem with her expressions and therefore neither do I. Her views are completely unjustified. It's as if she has no knowledge of the subject and yet she expresses her views like they are facts. Is that right?

Joanna

[joasia]

Catherine wrote:

On a less heavy note, what about an amnesty for Incognito by the way? He had a lively thread here, but vanished.

Fr. Seraphim lived in repentence. Incognito lives in self-justification.

Why are you so gong-ho for Incognito? All you do is glorify his posts. HIs views are based on his own mis-conceptions of Orthodox spiritual teachings and you seem to have the same views.

These are my own personal opinions, so I hope the moderators will allow them since you can say what you please.

[Anastasios]

!

I don’t think she has a problem with her expressions and therefore neither do I. Her views are completely unjustified. It's as if she has no knowledge of the subject and yet she expresses her views like they are facts. Is that right?

Joanna

I don't think her views that

a) Why read Fr Seraphim when you can just read the Optina Elders
b) A Russian might not "get" the same thing out of Fr Seraphim as an American because Fr Seraphim was speaking more to Americans

are "completely unjustified," even if I personally might disagree with her, and where did she speak her opinions as facts? She said like 2 or 3 times that it was just her opinion and she didn't expect anyone to agree with her.

The only thing I don't get is what his prior sin before baptism has to do with the quality of his spiritual writings or why it would justify covering up his pictures; I have a problem with that, but not the other views, even though I disagree with a) and think that b) is only partially true.

But again, I can't really see why we keep posting here until Catherine decides if she is going to continue discussing it. We might just be talking to air. So what would the point of that be?

Fr Anastasios