Does anyone here follow Canon 37 of the Council of Laodicea?

[jgress]

I would have thought this kind of thing would fall under the discretion of one's spiritual father and one's individual situation. We don't decide for ourselves how strictly we observe all the canons of the Church (and there are many canons!), but we do so under guidance. I think these kinds of discussions could be a source of scandal for many.

[Maria]

I would have thought this kind of thing would fall under the discretion of one's spiritual father and one's individual situation. We don't decide for ourselves how strictly we observe all the canons of the Church (and there are many canons!), but we do so under guidance. I think these kinds of discussions could be a source of scandal for many.

While this is true, Jonathan, there are the commonly held misconceptions that members of the TOC tend to be rather UberOrthodox and follow very strictly the canons of the Orthodox Church. I think these wild ideas have been furthered by such derogatory and inflammatory books such as The Crazy Side of Orthodoxy, which was recently published by the eccentric Frankie Schaeffer and his Regina Orthodox Press.

Instead, I am delightfully finding that members of the GOC laity whom I have recently encountered do not dress like pilgrims or monastics (wearing floor length garments), but wear modest fashions, such as below the kneecap length dresses. Neither do they wear head coverings outside of Holy Services or wear uniform head coverings while in church, but a variety is allowed.

Therefore, I welcome these interesting threads by Jason because I have the same questions and want to learn from the source rather than from unscholarly books like The Crazy Side of Orthodoxy. If I have gone beyond what is allowed by the moderators here, then I apologize.

[jgress]

Thank you, Maria. I guess what concerns me is that some people will post about how strict they are in following every single canon to the letter, which could discourage those of us who have been allowed a much greater deal of economy in terms of ascetic practice. Other people will post about how lax they are, on the other hand, causing a temptation to those who have been blessed to observe the canons more strictly. When it comes to ascetic practice, I think it's best not to reveal anything about one's own practice to others without need, and not to inquire idly into what others are doing. The question of whether it's all right to exchange gifts with your heterodox relatives comes under this, I think. If we all observed strictness, then no, we shouldn't even visit our relatives on Western Christmas, and certainly not exchange gifts. But would that be the best path in all circumstances? I don't see why it should. Ultimately it's just none of my business.

[Maria]

Thank you, Maria. I guess what concerns me is that some people will post about how strict they are in following every single canon to the letter, which could discourage those of us who have been allowed a much greater deal of economy in terms of ascetic practice. Other people will post about how lax they are, on the other hand, causing a temptation to those who have been blessed to observe the canons more strictly. When it comes to ascetic practice, I think it's best not to reveal anything about one's own practice to others without need, and not to inquire idly into what others are doing. The question of whether it's all right to exchange gifts with your heterodox relatives comes under this, I think. If we all observed strictness, then no, we shouldn't even visit our relatives on Western Christmas, and certainly not exchange gifts. But would that be the best path in all circumstances? I don't see why it should. Ultimately it's just none of my business.

Thanks. Your explanation was very helpful.

I too exchange gifts, but I give gifts year round. If a brother or sister in Christ has few clothes and is cold, I will gift them clothes immediately rather than waiting for Christmas. If making an apron can bring someone cheer and help them to realize that we truly care, then this gift-giving helps bear a good Christian witness, and may even help lead to their conversion if they are non-Christians or members of other non-canonical or rootless (without apostolic succession) Christian churches.

[JHunt777]

Thank you, Maria. I guess what concerns me is that some people will post about how strict they are in following every single canon to the letter, which could discourage those of us who have been allowed a much greater deal of economy in terms of ascetic practice. Other people will post about how lax they are, on the other hand, causing a temptation to those who have been blessed to observe the canons more strictly. When it comes to ascetic practice, I think it's best not to reveal anything about one's own practice to others without need, and not to inquire idly into what others are doing. The question of whether it's all right to exchange gifts with your heterodox relatives comes under this, I think. If we all observed strictness, then no, we shouldn't even visit our relatives on Western Christmas, and certainly not exchange gifts. But would that be the best path in all circumstances? I don't see why it should. Ultimately it's just none of my business.

In this thread, I am interested in the thoughts of others on this forum regarding the interpretation and application of a canon that addresses the subject of relations with heretics. I would consider this a subject of ecclesiology rather than one of ascetic practice, and I don’t think we should fear scandalizing others by discussing the meaning and application of this and other canons in general. If we personally fall short in observing certain canons, this is something we can discuss with our spiritual father, and if others fall short it is not our place to judge them. Unfortunately, today the canons are often poorly understood (if at all) and poorly applied (if at all). Yet, some people latch on to a canon or two, interpret the canon subjectively without any understanding of the purpose of the canon or how it has been applied historically, and cause all kinds of problems for themselves and for the Church. Some who claim to have great reverence for the canons approach them as a Protestant often approaches the Bible, picking and choosing at random without any consistency, and without any sense of the place of the canons in the tradition of the Church. This mishandling of the canons leads some to criticize the canons themselves and claim that they are altogether archaic and without importance. This is obviously not the right attitude, but I think it could be remedied in part by a healthy and respectful discussion about what certain canons mean and how they might apply today.

[jgress]

I imagine we all agree on ecclesiology: our heterodox relatives and friends are outside the Church. Whether that means we must refuse to accept their gifts on Dec 25 N.S. is another matter. True, this is a canon that reflects the Church's understanding of ecclesiology, but we can still distinguish between the underlying dogma and the praxis.

I was only offering my personal opinion about the dangers of these kinds of discussions. I am not going to shut down the discussion if people want to talk about it. When everyone chimes in with their own interpretation of this canon, however, I am generally concerned that it will confuse and scandalize some people. This doesn't seem to be an area where people should make up their own minds on how to observe the canon, but they should each discuss it with their respective spiritual fathers, bearing in mind their individual circumstances.

Finally, you are adopting the same preachy attitude that I have scolded you for in the thread on fasting. Please bear in mind that you are not a member of the TOC, so this kind of lecturing tone is not going to be received in the same way as if you were a member of a TOC jurisdiction.

[Mark Templet]

I hereby offer my two cents on this matter. I do so by first stating that this is my opinion and not an official statement at all. So, I reserve the right to be wrong.

We must view all canons with the light of faith and the understanding that these guidelines are there to keep us safe and on the path of salvation; to preserve truth and avoid problems. With that said the canon states that we cannot accept gifts from Jews and heretics connected with “their holidays.” So, no, we cannot accept unleavened bread from a Jew celebrating Passover—that is their Jewish holiday. If Arians celebrated Jesus’ Creation Day and exchanged gifts we could not accept such things. However, Christmas is our holiday! Now, my Roman Catholic and Protestant family members are celebrating it at the wrong time- but they are still celebrating the holiday of the ancient Church. Christmas isn’t their holiday, they got that from us! We need to take more ownership of this in our minds.

On a practical level, I am glad that all the holiday family gatherings and gift exchanges are all well over with by the time we reach the real Christmas. I find it much more somber and contemplative for the feast day.
This canon is meant to prevent the confusion and scandal of Christians with those who are outside of the Church. If I saw one of you exchanging a gift with your family member on Western Christmas, I wouldn’t think you had abandoned Orthodoxy for that. On the other hand, if I saw you exchanging gifts with a Hindu on one of their holidays I would be scandalized and wonder why you would honor such a day with a gift to a pagan.

Bottom line: Holy Nativity (Christmas) is OUR holiday, not a Jewish, heretical, or pagan holiday.