The Affliction of Scrupulosity

[Barbara]

I saw this essay earlier, and meant to come back to read it with the full attention it deserves.

I still have to do that =!
But meanwhile this book sounds G-R-E-A-T - except for the phony-Protestant authors belonging to a no=name "church".
I have to put that dig in, so it's clear I am maintaining healthy skepticism about their angle.

But if what he says is true, that the principles are applicable to any sort of Elder situation, then
I am all ears.

Please let's do keep up to date with any USEFUL articles or books which appear in the future on this thorny subject.

Meanwhile I may look at the one mentioned here to see if it's worht ordering.

The topic is of the utmost importance for all of us.

[Matthew]

Another book that is perhaps not quite as good but has a similar take, and has useful information is available here for free in PDF,
http://www.reveal.org/development/Churc ... _Abuse.pdf

The followup book to that one is also available for free viewing, but this one I have not read before:
http://www.reveal.org/development/Recov ... _Abuse.pdf

[Barbara]

Well here is the most negative review from amazon of the first book.
I was going to Interlibrary Loan it, but I thought I better check to see what kind of book it really is, first.
It costs the library each time quite a bit of money to order books, so I wanted to not be a frivolous patron !

I was already thinking that it's TOO Protestant for me to be able to relate to ; if only an Orthodox priest or monk
would write a relevant book, it would be so much easier to read.
I know Ic. had a history in evangelicals, or one of those sects, so maybe it was more comfy for you to read ?

I am posting this so people can hear a little snippet of opposing viewpoint.
Mainly too though because I am wondering WHAT church this woman went to which
forbade open-toed shoes [assumedly heels ] ?

"By Kay Ellen "Kay" (Texas) -
This review is from: Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, The: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church

I was very disappointed in this book. It is a modern day pop psychology book written to a culture that loves to call everybody an abuser and everybody a victim. The Apostle Paul was mistreated by the Pharisees, his elders and church leaders, yet he never pulled the victim card rather he went about trying to love and serve those who had taught him wrong and then condemned him for trusting Christ instead of their religion. Paul is a good example of what we should do when we come out of a legalistic situation. Pray for those who wronged you, serve them even. Paul went on a campaign to win those who abused him. This book touts the exact opposite. It promotes bitterness and resentment. It justifies harboring feelings of victimization. Come on out of it and do like Paul did, serve, love move on. I was a member of a very very legalistic sect for 16 years yet I hold no grudge. My church was ridiculously legalistic. No red clothing, no open toed shoes, no nakeup or jewelry, no gold buckles, women cant shave, and we had to ask Pastor if we could buy a new car or go on vacation. I have a very unique perspective of grace having come through what I did. Im thankful for my experience not bitter. I understand Christs love and grace in a special way. I love those people. They were all a part of Gods plan. I want to help them. Paul came out of a ridiculous religion and then spent all his time trying to winn those people to Christ and His grace."

^ I agree heartily with the LAST sentence !

How do you feel, Icxypion, reading her comments ? Do you think "Mary Kay"'s critique is well-intentioned but faced with reality, irrelevant ?

Her sentiments of forgiveness are very admirable. Is she too lenient, though ?
It could be argued that she leaves the door open for abuse to keep boiling over in these groups.

[Maria]

Well here is the most negative review from amazon of the first book.
I was going to Interlibrary Loan it, but I thought I better check to see what kind of book it really is, first.
It costs the library each time quite a bit of money to order books, so I wanted to not be a frivolous patron !

I was already thinking that it's TOO Protestant for me to be able to relate to ; if only an Orthodox priest or monk
would write a relevant book, it would be so much easier to read.
I know Ic. had a history in evangelicals, or one of those sects, so maybe it was more comfy for you to read ?

I am posting this so people can hear a little snippet of opposing viewpoint.
Mainly too though because I am wondering WHAT church this woman went to which
forbade open-toed shoes [assumedly heels ] ?

"By Kay Ellen "Kay" (Texas) -
This review is from: Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, The: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church

I was very disappointed in this book. It is a modern day pop psychology book written to a culture that loves to call everybody an abuser and everybody a victim. The Apostle Paul was mistreated by the Pharisees, his elders and church leaders, yet he never pulled the victim card rather he went about trying to love and serve those who had taught him wrong and then condemned him for trusting Christ instead of their religion. Paul is a good example of what we should do when we come out of a legalistic situation. Pray for those who wronged you, serve them even. Paul went on a campaign to win those who abused him. This book touts the exact opposite. It promotes bitterness and resentment. It justifies harboring feelings of victimization. Come on out of it and do like Paul did, serve, love move on. I was a member of a very very legalistic sect for 16 years yet I hold no grudge. My church was ridiculously legalistic. No red clothing, no open toed shoes, no nakeup or jewelry, no gold buckles, women cant shave, and we had to ask Pastor if we could buy a new car or go on vacation. I have a very unique perspective of grace having come through what I did. Im thankful for my experience not bitter. I understand Christs love and grace in a special way. I love those people. They were all a part of Gods plan. I want to help them. Paul came out of a ridiculous religion and then spent all his time trying to winn those people to Christ and His grace."

^ I agree heartily with the LAST sentence !

How do you feel, Icxypion, reading her comments ? Do you think "Mary Kay"'s critique is well-intentioned but faced with reality, irrelevant ?

Her sentiments of forgiveness are very admirable. Is she too lenient, though ?
It could be argued that she leaves the door open for abuse to keep boiling over in these groups.

It is important to recognize when members of the clergy cross boundaries, and/or if we ourselves are contributing to the problem. However, forgiveness is very important as feeling pity for oneself is not godly.

No open-toed shoes? I think "Mary Kay" was referring to sandals.

I have met several women who visited certain World Orthodox monasteries where they asked the women to wear socks with their shoes, long skirts, modest long sleeved shirts, and head coverings (scarves). The monastics did not want women to wear sandals as it exposes too much of their feet. Plus some women like to wear bright red nail polish on their toes, and that drives men crazy. That is why there is the requirement to wear socks. I do not remember which monasteries have that rule, but I think it is the GOARCH Ephraimite Monasteries. Retired Bishop Tikhon of the OCA also did not like women to wear sandals to church or to wear shoes without wearing opaque stockings or socks.

[Matthew]

Yes, it is a protestant perspective on their own examples of abusive Protestant leaders and communities. However, there is a pattern, a psychological system and set of common symptoms that are found in all abusive systems regardless of denominations. As far as that holds true this book could be useful for someone who has been raised solely in an Orthodox Christian context and is yet experiencing some form of abuse in their parish or relationship with a monastic elder or eldress. Also, while I found the book interesting, I did not find it nearly as well written and useful as the book by Van Vonderen. If you want a peek into the caliber of the book, you can read this interview with the author some 10 years after the book first was published and while the freebie above is out of print, the VanVonderen book is still a hot seller because it is a good book.

Interview:
http://www.spiritualabuse.com/?page_id=58

Well here is the most negative review from amazon of the first book. How do you feel, Icxypion, reading her comments ? Do you think "Mary Kay"'s critique is well-intentioned but faced with reality, irrelevant ? Her sentiments of forgiveness are very admirable. Is she too lenient, though? It could be argued that she leaves the door open for abuse to keep boiling over in these groups.

Well, in Orthodoxy we talk not so much in terms of "either-or" but in terms of "both-and". We should forgive, we should love, and we should identify evil, abuse, and dysfunction for what it is and depending on the response of the perpetrator(s) we should pursue higher and higher authorities in the chain of command (inside or outside the church) to stop the wrongdoing if it is serious enough. Hence, the New Testament injunction to NOT go to the secular judges to get "personal justice" is not applicable in the case where helpless (orphans and widows, are noted in the Bible in this case) where we are told to defend them by God, and if necessary to appeal (importune) to the judge without tiring until he gives the protection that the weak and helpless desperately need.

Also, we are told inside the Church that if they will not listen to two or three witnesses in private, then to tell it to the whole church, and if they then still refuse to listen, let them be expelled from the Church. This does not mean there is a lack of forgiveness or love on the part of the "accuser" obviously, or the New Testament and the canons of the Church that were set by holy bishops in council would not have set these things down on paper to guide the Church. They would have said, just love and forgive them and do nothing but pray, and leave them to the judgement of God."

[Barbara]

Reading this reply I am starting to think about "abbot mel" of the Manton monastery of St John Maximovitch near
REDDING.

Thank God that scary fake-elder who was SUCH BAD NEWS from DAY ONE of his tenure there, finally was given an order to leave .

That seems a successful case of appealing to public opinion by the publishing of a terribly revealing article about his outrageous behavior.

If the whole truth becomes known, I suspect that abbot mel was even WORSE than depicted in that expose by a catechumen or
actually maybe just an inquirer into monasticism.

I am not sympathetic to the brothers who stayed there. I think they ALL should have gone over to somewhere
better.
What kind of monk would be allowing both the erstwhile abbot AND his anointed lieutenant, the former horrific offender
respectfully refered to as "a senior monk, fr nektarios" by the recent communique from that brotherhood.
What were the 2 of them doing traveling to Greece, anyway, as was mentioned?

I doubt they were both seeking exorcisms....which is what they surely need !

[Matthew]

God have mercy and lead these men to their senses and join the True Orthodox Church.