Are self-discipline and orderliness virtues?

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Matthew
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Are self-discipline and orderliness virtues?

Post by Matthew »

jgress wrote:

I think it's hard in our culture even to see what the problem is. In a culture where being shaven is identified with effeminacy, then of course shaving would be sinful, since effeminacy is sinful. But in our culture, being shaven doesn't have those associations; in fact, among more conservative types (like my grandparents, who came of age in the late 1940s/early 1950s), wearing a beard is a sign of slovenliness and bad character, while being clean-shaven and neat is a sign of self-discipline and orderliness. Since self-discipline and orderliness are also virtues, it should follow that in such a culture, men should be shaven, if they are attempting to offer examples of Christian virtuous living...

I just want to correct this point in your argument, because self-discipline and orderliness are not actually virtues. A true virtue is something which is good all the time and in every case. By definition a virtue is something that cannot be made evil or practiced in such a manner as to further evil designs. However, consider how the self-discipline and orderliness of the SS elite forces, and of the NAZI regime in general, was one of their most noted trademarks. Yet, these attributes were efficient servants to furthering their evil plans. Hence, while self-discipline and orderliness are useful tools, they are in fact neutral. Love, justice, mercy, and the like, on the other hand, are always good and whenever practiced constitute a moral, spiritual, and ethical good, since they can do no harm if truly present and practised. Hence, the values of the 50s cannot be rallied to defend shaving since they do not constitute an Orthodox value system, but rather reflect the secular values of a society that was rapidly falling away from God by losing touch with real virtues that are the only real barrier to societal corruption. So even though the generation of the 50s (the leave it to beaver generation of kids) was very sharp and orderly looking they had no real defences against the moral collapse of the decadent 60s and onwards.

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Maria
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Re: Are self-discipline and orderliness virtues?

Post by Maria »

Interesting observation, Symeon.

Definitely tolerance is not a virtue.

How many Christian virtues are there?

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner.

Matthew
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Re: Are self-discipline and orderliness virtues?

Post by Matthew »

I personally am not aware of there being a set number in Orthodox theology. However, I do believe we talk about chief virtues, and perhaps this is where the Roman Catholic have developed their list of virtues. I think i also read somewhere that Humility is the mother of all the virtues.

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