Does the MP Have Grace?

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Justin Kissel

Does the MP Have Grace?

Post by Justin Kissel »

Does the Moscow Patriarchate have grace in their sacraments? According to the document released by the Synod of Bishops in 1990 they do (at least in some small way):

We believe and confess that in those churches of the Patriarchate of Moscow where the priest fervently believes and sincerely prays, showing himself to be not only a "minister of the cult", but also a good shepherd who loves his sheep, to those who approach him with faith, the grace of salvation is accessible in the mysteries. Such churches are few in number on the immense territory of the Russian land.

The churches of the catacomb Christians, our brethren, in which the divine services are celebrated by priests who have preserved canonical succession from those who received the crown of martyrdom, the true archpastors of the Church, are even fewer in number and inaccessible to the vast mass of believers. - Source

Father George Lardas comments:

It has been the position of our Council (Sobor) of Bishops, right from the beginning, that we must always be open to dialog with the rest of the Russian Church, and in our decision to sever ties with Metropolitan Sergius, we appealed to a future free council of the entire Russian Church. It has never been our position that we constitute the entirety of the Russian Church, only her free voice in those troubled times, the only part of the Russian Church that is able to articulate the unconstrained conscience of the suffering Russian Church. In severing ties with Metropolitan Sergius, we did not (although it may have been the private opinion of some of our hierarchs) take the official position that his Mysteries were without grace. In appealing to a future council of the Russian Church, we have admitted readiness to dialog, and this has been repeated and reconfirmed in the official statements of our most recent Sobors (1990 and 1994), which Metropolitan Vitaly himself also signed. In dialoguing with representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, Archbishop Mark was doing nothing else but carrying out the decisions of our bishops. - Source

While this helps to heal my understanding to an extent, it does bring up other questions in my mind. For instance, what did Bp. Valentine think of such a statement from ROCOR's synod? Bp. Gregory of Denver? Or what about in 1994 when the synod said: "We are distressed that wide circles within the Patriarchate have been following the lead of other Local Churches who have lost a healthy sense of the understanding of the Traditions of the Holy Fathers. Yet at the same time we rejoice that within the same Patriarchate there are also healthy elements. These consist of priests and even laymen who are Orthodox in mind and preach true Orthodoxy despite all obstacles"? What do the ROCiE's, ROAC's, and GOC's have to say about these sorts of statements? Or more importantly, what did they say then, and what do they say now?

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Julianna
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Post by Julianna »

ROCOR's position used tobe that they couldn't declare the Soviet Patriarchate tobe with grace. Now it's that they can't declare it tobe without grace.

Interesting year's you've choosen.

In 1990 Vladika Metropolitan Valentine joined ROCOR. World Orthodoxy and the Monphysites signed the Chambesy Agreement which agree to ignore the last 4 Ecumenical Councils and lift anathemas.

1994's when Vladika Metropolitan Valentine and I believe Vladika Bishop Gregory left ROCOR as well as the entire GOC! This's when the position changed to Cyprianism and accepting the Soviet Patriarchate's having grace and being their Mother Church.

This happened one year after the Patriarchates of Moscow, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandra and many other "Orthodox" churches signed the Balamand Agreement with the Papists saying that they've shared "one faith, one priesthood, one baptism" and that "they are sister churches, (two lungs of the same body) and should search for perfect and total communion"

THE CHURCH ABROAD CONCERNING FATHER DIMITRY DUDKO AND THE
MOSCOW PATRIARCHATE

Exerpts from St.Metr.Philaret's letter:
..."in receiving the Soviet clergy, we apply
the principle of economia. And we receive the
clergymen from Moscow not as
ones possessing grace, but as ones receiving
it by the very act of union. But
to recognize the church of the evil-doers as
the bearer and repository of grace, that we
cannot do, of course. For outside of
Orthodoxy there is no grace; and the
Soviet church has deprived itself of grace.

In concluding my lengthy letter, I should like
to point several things out to you, Father.
The Bishops' Sobor resolved to be guided
by and to fulfill the Testament of
Metropolitan Anastasy, in which the late First Hierarch
bade us not to have any communion with
the Soviet church whatsoever, not only no
prayerful communion, but not even ordinary
contact.
On what basis then have you and other
clergymen had direct relations
with Father Dudko? And have written him letters,
etc.? No matter how sincere
a man you may have considered him to be,
nevertheless, can your private
opinion annul a ruling adopted by the Church?"

Here is what the Chief Hierarch of ROCOR (Vitaly)
wrote to a ROCOR priest:

"At the moment when Metropolitan Sergius ceased
to recognize Metropolitan Peter of Krutitsa as his
spiritual authority, he deprived himself of the
Apostolic Succession and became a usurper. Such was
the path taken by Metropolitan Sergius and after him
all the other patriarchs and metropolitans up to the
present day, which is why we do not have any communion
with the Moscow Patriarchate. It is a PSEUDO
PATRIARCHATE with a PSEUDO PATRIARCH at its head.
This
is the fundmental reason. So we do not point at it and
say, 'Look what it's turned into,' becausethe very
heart of the matter is that the Moscow Patriarchate
has lost the Apostolic Succession, which is to say
that it has lost the Grace of Christ."

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Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Julianna, in 1990 the ROCOR synod said that at least some priests in the MP had grace. Why did Bp. Valentine join a group (ROCOR) that said that the MP had grace if he believed this to be untrue?

Last edited by Justin Kissel on Sat 20 September 2003 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Julianna
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Post by Julianna »

We will not give the Church as a sacrifice over
to the mercy of the BETRAYERS OF GOD and foul
politicians and agents of atheism and destruction.
And by this protest we do NOT cut ourselves off from
her, but WE cut THEM off from US and boldly say: not
only have we NOT gone away and do NOT go away and will
NEVER go away from the bosom of the TRUE Orthodox
Church, but those who are not with us and for us but
are against us we consider Her ENEMIES, BETRAYERS, AND
MURDERERS. It is not WE who go into schism by not
submitting to Metropolitan Sergius, but rather YOU who
are obedient to him go with him into THE ABYSS OF THE
CHURCH'S CONDEMNATION.---Saint Joseph of Petrograd, 1928

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Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Oops--- sorry about the edit :oops:

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Julianna
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Post by Julianna »

Paradosis wrote:

Julianna, in 1990 the ROCOR synod said that at least some priests in the MP had grace. Why did Bp. Valentine join a group (ROCOR) that said that the MP had grace if he believed this to be untrue?

Maybe they're just talking about Metropolitan Valentine and the others that came to the ROCOR from the MP? :P

ROCOR writes many documents and some that say the opposite of others it seems. maybe he'd missed this new take. Was this statement released in Russian or English? Vladika doesn't know English's why I'd asked

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Post by Julianna »

Paradosis wrote:

Oops--- sorry about the edit :oops:

What's edited?

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