St John Maximovich:vaccinated-?

[Barbara]

The great Saint may well have been forced to. Not during his years in leftist-occupied California, but before that, in Japanese-occupied Shanghai.

How could THIS be ? A 2009 memoir of life for Russian emigres who fled the Bolshevik Revolution and the Soviet Union adds a new facet to the life of St John Maximovitch in Shanghai.

This is that the southern Chinese city was notoriously infested with illness. Typhoid, typhus and cholera reigned there.
The Japanese occupiers insisted that all citizens, no matter what their country of origin, MUST accept vaccinations against these 3 scourges.

But it was not a kindly suggestion. The order was enforced by soldiers manning the streets who vigilantly checked each passerby for the required certificate. If the hapless person could not produce one, guess what happened ??

In a preview of the flu panic of 2020-2021 or 2022, the Japanese soldiers would grab the citizen - and ruthlessly vaccinated the person on the spot ! Surely, no elegant manners were displayed ...

Out of fear of this dangerous event [ who knew in what state of sterilization the vaccination needles were ? ], some Chinese got themselves inoculated multiple times, collecting a certificate for each one. These shady entrepreneurs then sold the certificates on the black market, probably for outlandish prices.

All readers of St John's life know that he walked the streets of Shanghai at every hour of the day or night visiting sick and needy emigres. Thus, he must inevitably have frequently encountered these patrol units.

How did the Saint handle this dilemma ? Perhaps he agreed to receive a legitimate vaccination to avoid the dreadful, unsanitary version ? There is no record, of course, as the people who recorded their memories of life in Shanghai with their beloved Archbishop John did not write down every detail. They reminisced years later about personal episodes which highlighted St John's sanctity.

Probably none thought to report on this subject of how he either got around the forced vaccination policy - or accepted cholera, typhoid and typhus inoculations from one of the many Russian doctors dwelling in Shanghai in an attempt to avoid unnecessary unpleasantness with the Japanese authorities.

On the eve of the 30th anniversary of St John's Glorification, it is interesting to speculate here.

[Suaidan]

Those were pre-mRNA vaccines.

[SavaBeljovic]

Not my typical foray of what I'd reply to but I'll add a few thoughts:

It should go without stating that today, vaccines are sort of a double edged sword. It is a wonderful medicine that saves lives but it's easy to be anti-vax (as long as you do homeschooling and don't go down certain career paths) in the United States at least and it's relatively safe.

I don't think vaccines are all evil, nor do I think they're all good either. It is something a trade off and to my knowledge there hasn't been any great Church authority speaking about this (just yayai/NC eldertier "vaccines are the mark of the beast" type talk). The covid vaccine absolutely is a separate case altogether because it's not even a vaccine, it didn't go through any clinical trials, there's ample evidence to suggest it's not safe, etc.

I will just state "vaccinations" (ways to inoculate against infectious diseases) have existed in some form or another for centuries. Chinese doctors in the Ming dynasty circa 16th century talk about using scabs from victims of cowpox and rubbing them on open wounds to inoculate people against the disease. Similar practices existed in India as well and were already in Europe by the 1700s.

As Fr. Joseph pointed out, these were pre-mRNA vaccines and from what I can tell the vaccines against the diseases mentioned were actual vaccines and quite effective. Was the way the Japanese forced on the populace good? No, not really. Even the people who are responsible for a lot of modern vaccination technology and such (including one of the people who was responsible for eradicating polio) said that forcing people to be vaccinated is a bad idea. I know for some if St. John was vaccinated, it'd be scandalous and surely written off as a mistake and we'll hear some story about how St. John repented of being vaccinated... But considering the points above, I don't think it matters much. I know from a lot of the True Orthodox Bishops I've asked about vaccinations specifically they don't say it's good or bad, no opinion either way.

Also I want to state this and I'm not sure to make **extra bold** letters but I'll try. JUST FOR NOTE: I am personally against vaccination, as my parents were, and I have never been vaccinated willingly. I did get a flu shot once when I was 16 and got very sick and haven't done it since. I don't have children but as I mentioned here in the US it's relatively safe and simple to raise children without getting them vaccinated and I would probably do that myself if I ever have children one day -- God willing. So if anyone wants to accuse me of being a shill for big pharma please read the *large print* above.

[eish]

Quite simply, it does not bother me that St. John might have gotten these vaccines and I doubt he was overly concerned about them. Saint Herman even had the Aleuts inoculated against smallpox.

Sure, those vaccines may have had health risks. They might have been toxic. They might not have helped. It is unimportant because there is no sin per se in taking a medicine which doesn't work well or has side effects.

For our times I must take a different stance.

There is a big difference between vaccination in the times of St. Herman and St. John compared to today: Our jabs are made from aborted babies. It is for this reason that I cannot accept any vaccine for any reason. We were lined up in school and jabbed without any parental consent (which was illegal, btw.) nor any knowledge to this day of what we were given. In addition I was given quite a few jabs which I do know what they are, and I can in no way approve these witches brews made from children.

The practice of cultivating publicly distributed vaccines in aborted tissue was already introduced as far back at least as the MMR vaccine in the early 90's. This fact was hidden from the general public. Yes, there were people who knew and complained, but they had no platform and so most of us never heard them. It would not have occurred to any sane person to ask "Did you grow this in murdered babies?" It was a black swan question.

It is no longer possible, I think, to take any vaccine in good conscience given that the people making them are so blatantly lying about it. Now that we all know, they had the nerve to demand we take the new mRNA ones tainted by unconscionable development, because we were already given those made from infants! At the same time here in this country, they went so far as to lie to our faces and simply state that it is not true, contrary to all evidence and open admission, that such experiments were involved. Even the "traditional" vaccines have this exact same concern. You may notice that Russian and Chinese jabs were not mRNA, nor was AstraZeneca, and they were all cultured in infant tissues and caused the same health problems.

They deceived us for a quarter of a century. Now that they were caught, they sometimes say "Okay, here's another one that's not tested on aborted tissue." I must believe that? Even if it were true--and there is no way it is--it would simply be to cover something else, some other black swan evil which I cannot ask because it has not occurred to me and I cannot ask by name, every single evil the devil might have dreamt up.

That is why I cannot but view any vaccine with suspicion even if it is claimed to not make use of aborted children, and even if it was introduced before the practice. What once was cultured in eggs is surely being cultured in foetal tissue today.

I'm not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you.

[SavaBeljovic]

Quite simply, it does not bother me that St. John might have gotten these vaccines and I doubt he was overly concerned about them. Saint Herman even had the Aleuts inoculated against smallpox.

Sure, those vaccines may have had health risks. They might have been toxic. They might not have helped. It is unimportant because there is no sin per se in taking a medicine which doesn't work well or has side effects.

For our times I must take a different stance.

There is a big difference between vaccination in the times of St. Herman and St. John compared to today: Our jabs are made from aborted babies. It is for this reason that I cannot accept any vaccine for any reason. We were lined up in school and jabbed without any parental consent (which was illegal, btw.) nor any knowledge to this day of what we were given. In addition I was given quite a few jabs which I do know what they are, and I can in no way approve these witches brews made from children.

The practice of cultivating publicly distributed vaccines in aborted tissue was already introduced as far back at least as the MMR vaccine in the early 90's. This fact was hidden from the general public. Yes, there were people who knew and complained, but they had no platform and so most of us never heard them. It would not have occurred to any sane person to ask "Did you grow this in murdered babies?" It was a black swan question.

It is no longer possible, I think, to take any vaccine in good conscience given that the people making them are so blatantly lying about it. Now that we all know, they had the nerve to demand we take the new mRNA ones tainted by unconscionable development, because we were already given those made from infants! At the same time here in this country, they went so far as to lie to our faces and simply state that it is not true, contrary to all evidence and open admission, that such experiments were involved. Even the "traditional" vaccines have this exact same concern. You may notice that Russian and Chinese jabs were not mRNA, nor was AstraZeneca, and they were all cultured in infant tissues and caused the same health problems.

They deceived us for a quarter of a century. Now that they were caught, they sometimes say "Okay, here's another one that's not tested on aborted tissue." I must believe that? Even if it were true--and there is no way it is--it would simply be to cover something else, some other black swan evil which I cannot ask because it has not occurred to me and I cannot ask by name, every single evil the devil might have dreamt up.

That is why I cannot but view any vaccine with suspicion even if it is claimed to not make use of aborted children, and even if it was introduced before the practice. What once was cultured in eggs is surely being cultured in foetal tissue today.

I'm not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you.

Good take, I think this is a respectable position. However I don't think we can make any definitive judgement for Orthodox Christians to not get vaccinated, just recommend against it. As to my knowledge, besides the clot shot, no True Orthodox Bishop has made a statement about vaccines overall besides a recommendation.

Here in the US there's been... inconsistent ruling and practice about forced vaccination. For example my mother tells the story that I and my siblings were not allowed at multiple places as a child because we weren't vaccinated (even though we had proper religious exemption, and LA state law doesn't mandate it -- not to even mention as I said in my post, it's perfectly safe especially in the USA to not be vaccinated, if we were in a third world country, different story) yet some of these same places like day cares and such had all sorts of undocumented illegal immigrants who had no paperwork proof of vaccination but they were accepted.

The Supreme Court did rule that forced vaccinations were constitutional in 1905 (a judgement I do very much question) even though really only with the rise of big pharma later in the 20th century did we actually see doctors and others support forced vaccinations. Every now and then you'll see pro-vax people just take the position of "well you don't have to get the vaccine if you don't want, you're just putting yourself at risk" which I fully understand and agree with, but it's strange how now we see people act like if you don't get a vaccination against the flu you may as well have broken into the SAD and re-introduced smallpox.

[Suaidan]

I'm pretty sure our Metropolitan Anghelos made a rather clear statement against it

[SavaBeljovic]

I'm pretty sure our Metropolitan Anghelos made a rather clear statement against it

Was that against the clot shot or vaccines overall?