HTM(Jordanville) with an elder Savvas

[NektariosLopez]

There's timestamps to skip ahead. Perhaps a short review. I haven't watched it yet though curious of his teachings on some of the topics in the timestamps to see what the neo elders are up to. Seems he is a big follower of elder Porphyrios teachings, based on the books he's written.

[SavaBeljovic]

I was at Jordanville one of the times while this Fr. Savvas was giving a lecture there (back in September of 2024). From what Roosh -- who was operating the book store that day -- told me, I wasn't too impressed with him. His whole shtick is that he "knew" New Calendarist Saints, and he promotes the fighting from within stuff.

It's an issue in True Orthodoxy, and especially in world Orthodoxy, where people think anything that is done on Mt. Athos, or anyone who steps foot on Mt. Athos, is automatically Holy or a living Saint. I don't wish to be too harsh, as Mt. Athos is an ancient place where many people obtained their Salvation. There is definitely a special grace there -- as Panagia herself blessed the Mountain.

Looking at the timestamps, I see "women who wear make-up in church" is one of the topics discussed. I joke about this with Fr. Peter Heers, as he mentioned in one of his videos he'd "throw out" a woman who does this. It's good to know these people have such a strict view on women wearing make-up, but not heretical bishops.

post scriptum: I am also very suspicious of these monks who leave Mt. Athos and immediately go out and do speeches and lectures. Elder Ephraim of Katanoukia (who was an Old Calendarist, but the New Calendarists are trying to claim him as their own) said Ephraim of Arizona left the Holy Mountain to "chase riches". Metropolitan Petros of Astoria (memory eternal) was not a big fan of Elder Joseph the Cave Dweller as he felt he left his Elder too quickly to go teach. I'm not saying there's never a need for it, and I do think Elder Joseph the Cave Dweller (or Joseph the Hesychast as the New Calendarists call him, who was also an Old Calendarist) is a Saint, but there's definitely a temptation even for the "Holy Athonite monks" to do these things.

post post scriptum: St. Moses the Ethiopian says "not every Father with grey hair is an Elder", St. Ignatiy Brianchaninov (+ 1867) wrote in his time there were "...(almost) no Elders left..."

I am not trying to be rude or dismissive by not calling this Fr. Savvas "Elder", but the Saints are also clear actual Elders would not want to be called Elders.

[NektariosLopez]

His whole shtick is that he "knew" New Calendarist Saints, and he promotes the fighting from within stuff.

Based on the books I figured that was his aim.

It's an issue in True Orthodoxy, and especially in world Orthodoxy, where people think anything that is done on Mt. Athos, or anyone who steps foot on Mt. Athos, is automatically Holy or a living Saint. I don't wish to be too harsh, as Mt. Athos is an ancient place where many people obtained their Salvation. There is definitely a special grace there -- as Panagia herself blessed the Mountain.

I assume this has been a temptation in all the history of the Church, regarding elderism/guruism as I know I've read from other saints of past centuries that have warned others of this temptation.

Looking at the timestamps, I see "women who wear make-up in church" is one of the topics discussed. I joke about this with Fr. Peter Heers, as he mentioned in one of his videos he'd "throw out" a woman who does this. It's good to know these people have such a strict view on women wearing make-up, but not heretical bishops.

I didn't see that but ridiculous to hyperfocus on that when they have bigger fish to fry. Don't get me wrong, piety is significant but I take it as related to pointing out the speck in others' eyes(impiety) but missing the plank in our own eye(communion with heretics).
Perhaps, I think it's about the external "traditionalism" that makes an impact on a parish by getting lost in the weeds of "piety" if one was to make a spectacle as that and now, "wow fr such and such is trad." As opposed to their bishop who seems removed from their parish life to a degree, at least in their minds, so that its not as impactful about whatever trouble the bishop is getting himself into.

post scriptum: I am also very suspicious of these monks who leave Mt. Athos and immediately go out and do speeches and lectures. Elder Ephraim of Katanoukia (who was an Old Calendarist, but the New Calendarists are trying to claim him as their own) said Ephraim of Arizona left the Holy Mountain to "chase riches". Metropolitan Petros of Astoria (memory eternal) was not a big fan of Elder Joseph the Cave Dweller as he felt he left his Elder too quickly to go teach. I'm not saying there's never a need for it, and I do think Elder Joseph the Cave Dweller (or Joseph the Hesychast as the New Calendarists call him, who was also an Old Calendarist) is a Saint, but there's definitely a temptation even for the "Holy Athonite monks" to do these things.

I recall reading that Elder Ephraim of Katanoukia was an Old Calendarist but I thought he switched to the NC. Are you saying this is historical revisionism about his life? Hard to keep up with all these revisions. It's why I pointed out in Fr Joseph's stream about the channel Harmony making a video about St. Charalambis the Fool for Christ, which I know the channel owner recognizes the neo elder saints, but wasn't sure if this is now on their list to claim him.

I am not trying to be rude or dismissive by not calling this Fr. Savvas "Elder", but the Saints are also clear actual Elders would not want to be called Elders.

with these neo elders, i use it the same as addressing Fr Peter Heers, as I'm recognizing his title but i reject the idea he has any spiritual authority as a priest. Perhaps with the neo elders, Fr might be more appropriate but I'm never sure who is simply a monastic and who is a hieromonk.

[SavaBeljovic]

Fr. Seraphim (Rose) of Platina echoed St. Ignatiy Brianchaninov's sentiment about there being no Elders left. Many of the Saints that talk about the importance of being under a spiritual father add the caveat of making sure you place yourself under a real spiritual father, and not someone who just claims to be one. I like one thing Fr. Methodius always says that True Orthodoxy must also be real Orthodoxy. It's not just enough to "be under a spiritual father" but to live spiritually.

I agree with piety, but we also have to understand what we're working with today. Especially here in America, it's hard enough to convince people to not eat meat on Wednesday and Friday, let alone wake up early and say prayers that take more than a few minutes. I think your assessment of it being a "false tradition" or "false piety" is spot on. I was in the SSPX and Sedevacantism before I came to Orthodoxy, being stunned and bedazzled by the "reverence" and "beauty" of Latin Mass.

I realized after a while the external form doesn't matter as much as what's actually being taught. But SSPX and Diocesan Latin Mass (and to a lesser extent, the Sedevacantists) exist to lure in people who are dissatified with Novus Ordo and the Vatican, and try to keep them there under the pretense that all you need is Latin Mass and women wearing skirts and head-coverings in Church, and you'll be fine.

The "world Orthodox" understand this too I believe. For example, in New Orleans, there is the GOARCH church, which you can tell by walking in the door is modernist. The priest doesn't wear a cassock and is clean shaven, there's American and Greek flags by the altar, pews, an organ. They even have "icons" of Our Lady of Guadalupe, pictures of Pope Francis and Martin Luther King around. Not to mention recruitment posters in the trapeza hall for AHEPA and other Masonic organizations.

You have one church that makes no attempt to hide the corruption, and then, a few blocks away, you have the Antiochian Church. No pews, the priest has a beard, wears a cassock, no flags by the altar, no organ. It looks like a proper Orthodox Church. So all the people who go to the GOARCH, and are upset with modernism, they have the "safety net" under them to catch them. Anything to make sure they won't go to us pesky True Orthodox here on the Northshore.

From what certain people are telling me, such as Archbishop Irenaios of Texas, Elder Ephraim of Katanoukia was an Old Calendarist his entire life. The New Calendarists are trying to claim all of our Saints as their own. St. Ieronymos, St. Haralampos, St. Nicholas Planas, Elder Joseph etc.

With the title thing, I realize "Elder" is common in some cultures. Arabs have the title of "sheikh" which can be given to people who run villages. In Russia they used the term "starost' instead of "starets" to separate an elder of secular affairs and one of spiritual affairs. We call all monks Father in the Orthodox Church, so I don't think it's rude to call these people simply Father. I am completely distrustful of anyone who calls themselves an "Elder" especially -- not saying this Fr. Savvas has done so, specifically.

[haralampopoulosjc]

From what certain people are telling me, such as Archbishop Irenaios of Texas, Elder Ephraim of Katanoukia was an Old Calendarist his entire life. The New Calendarists are trying to claim all of our Saints as their own. St. Ieronymos, St. Haralampos, St. Nicholas Planas, Elder Joseph etc.

An "old calendarist" yes, because he was an Athonite elder who followed the Patristic Calendar, but from what I've read he started commemorating the Patriarch again in the 1950s, and remained with the commemorators the rest of his life.

[Barbara]

Great thread ! Glad it got brought up again, as i missed it completely. Very useful for many reasons.

Is this Fr Savvas residing at Jordanville, then ?
How did he get there ?

I didn't watch the video yet.

But I certainly agree that no one should EVER call himself "Elder so and so" - it's just laughable.

[SavaBeljovic]

From what certain people are telling me, such as Archbishop Irenaios of Texas, Elder Ephraim of Katanoukia was an Old Calendarist his entire life. The New Calendarists are trying to claim all of our Saints as their own. St. Ieronymos, St. Haralampos, St. Nicholas Planas, Elder Joseph etc.

An "old calendarist" yes, because he was an Athonite elder who followed the Patristic Calendar, but from what I've read he started commemorating the Patriarch again in the 1950s, and remained with the commemorators the rest of his life.

From Archbishop Irenaios when I asked him about Elder Ephraim of Katanoukia:

"Dear in Christ Sava,

Let me first say that it grieves me that Orthodox Christians feel this is their best preparation as they enter into the Triodion and prepare themselves for Great Lent, to spend their days upon the internet and cast about for "bombshells" to seek to destroy those who would call them brother.  As St. John Chrysostom said: 

Do not say to me that I fasted for so many days, that I did not eat this or that, that I did not drink wine, that I endured want; but show me if thou from an angry man hast become gentle, if thou from a cruel man hast become benevolent. If thou art filled with anger, why oppress thy flesh? If hatred and avarice are within thee, of what benefit is it that thou drinkest water? Do not show forth a useless fast: for fasting alone does not ascend to heaven.

May God grant each of us a useful fast and perfection in the virtues.

Now, I will speculate that the person who sent this to you did not know Papa Ephraim of Katounakia, and never spoke with him or corresponded with him. I am assuming he bases his charges on the fact that the EP has canonized Papa Ephraim. But we know indeed the EP has canonized Elder Hieronymos of Aegina and St. Nicholas Planas, neither of whom ever acceded to the New Calendar and who are considered saints by the Old Calendarists as well. I can tell you I was in Avlona when this calendar was published and handed out. In terms of spiritual genealogy, Papa Ephraim was a disciple of Elder Nikephoros, but Elder Nikephoros was a severe man and not given to spiritual counsel.  Thus Papa Ephraim corresponded and visited with Elder Joseph, though in obedience, he never left Nikephoros. Elder Joseph instructed Papa Ephraim that after the death of Elder Nikephoros, he was to gather a synodia to maintain the ways of Elder Joseph and his disciples. (Apparently Elder Joseph already foresaw that Ephraim of Arizona would leave the mountain chasing his riches.)

Papa Ephraim did as he was instructed, and one of the monks who came to him on Mt. Athos was a young priest who would become Met. Angelos of Avlona.  Papa Ephraim blessed the then priest Angelos to leave the mountain and go to the Old Calendarists (this would have been about 12 years before he reposed).  This would be odd if he was a new calendarist, no?  Met. Angelos maintained communications with him through the remainder of his life. And while it is true that he reposed in a monastery on Mt. Athos, that is because he suffered a severe stroke in 1996 and was unable to care for himself in his hermitage.  When this publication came out, I specifically asked Met. Angelos (through our Abp. Porphyrios) if Papa Ephraim had been a commemorator of the EP.  He told me in no uncertain terms that Papa Ephraim was a non-commemorator when he was with him on the mountain and for as long as he was within his own faculties, and that this was also true of Elder Joseph, as specifically related by Papa Ephraim. In addition, Papa Ephraim had borne witness that the story that Ephraim of Arizona told of Elder Joseph having a vision to return to the new calendarists (of which Ephraim was the only witness) was a damnable lie.

Now, this is the state of my knowledge of the situation. I believe Elder Joseph to have been a true confessor of the faith at all times.  I believe him to have been a non-commemorator until his death (even if he had departed the Mathewites), and that his memory has been slandered by Ephraim of Arizona to justify his own embrace of the ecumenism. I asked about Papa Ephraim and was told the same from people who communicated with him up to the time of his stroke at least. I do not believe he has been featured in any other publications since 2020. The problem we have (and Met. Demetrios of HOTCA covered this in a video on Ephraim of Arizona and his claims) is that the biographers of these elders have great bias and they write things that cannot be logically squared with other things they record.  For example, they claim Papa Ephraim had a vision that "The Church is in Constantinople" but yet he remained with Nikephoros who was undeniably a zealot confessor (and, as I mentioned, blessed Met. Angelos to go to the Florinites). The bias in these recent accounts make discernment difficult, which is why I can only stand with what had been related to me directly.  If your correspondent spoke to Papa Ephraim and was told differently, I would certainly like to hear about that.

I pray you have a blessed Triodion and may God make a good preparation for us all.

In Christ,
the unworthy Irineos"