The New Holy Mountain Fathers

[Philaret]

A friend of mine was told recently by a GOC-K monk in Greece that Esphigmenou has declared that all who have received a covid vaccination will be damned. Does anyone have information about this? I find this to be suspect myself. It appears they are trying to paint Esphigmenou as fallen heretics. I truly am beyond weary.

[eish]

A friend of mine was told recently by a GOC-K monk in Greece that Esphigmenou has declared that all who have received a covid vaccination will be damned. Does anyone have information about this? I find this to be suspect myself. It appears they are trying to paint Esphigmenou as fallen heretics. I truly am beyond weary.

The context and wording may make a difference.

For example sometimes one might say that some group of sinners would be “damned” and the qualifier “unrepentant” is implicit. They could also be saying that the jab is a precursor of the mark, and drawing the comparison that the mark will not allow repentance and hence why we must be extremely resistant to the jab.

The claim you have reported sounds to me more like sour grapes--like claiming the Esphigmenou fathers are going too far in condemning the jab and warning people that they are losing their souls, while their own hierarchy is not opposing this obvious satanic practice. Even if the fathers perhaps did not word their statement absolutely perfectly--and keeping in mind that I myself can be wrong on it as well--certainly in spirit it is correct to say that the jab has damned some souls. We have seen it all around us, how many people have gone off the rails since 2020 and since died.

[Philaret]

Right. I don't accept the monk's simplistic report nor his implication that Esphigmenou is fallen. I am sure that the statement is nuanced.

I am hoping someone has the statement. This is important. The last bastion of Orthodoxy on the Holy Mountain is being discredited.

I was chrismated from Antioch into the GOC-K back in 2013. I took a wait-and-see approach after the Cyprianite union, praying from home for over a decade. Recently I have been talking myself into going back, but this has me on pause again. Lord, have mercy!

[eish]

praying from home for over a decade. Recently I have been talking myself into going back, but this has me on pause again. Lord, have mercy!

So, ME is Maine, some hours from the Abbey? On the order of a working day's drive? With other churches in the general vicinity as well?

Sorry for being that guy but not going to church in a decade sounds to me like a different problem from Cyprianism. You should contact your nearest other church if you don't trust the GOC-K (which I don't say that you should trust them now, but I wonder if the Cyprianite union was really that bad).

Some of us would love to have a church that close. America even has mostly functional buses and trains--find a way. Yeah, I'm being that guy but ask any of the clergy here and they'll be telling you roughly the same thing. You know it to be true.

I don't accept the monk's simplistic report nor his implication that Esphigmenou is fallen.

Let's not play broken telephone here. You say that your friend said that a monk said that Esphigmenou said. You don't even know if your friend accurately interpreted and relayed what the father told him, let alone if he did the same with the fathers of Esphigmenou. These sorts of stories may well be coming from a father who himself has not even read what the monastery wrote, but heard it from other fathers. Any of whom may have had an axe to grind. Keeping in mind that something which was declared “by Esphigmenou” might not even be official, if it is some personal opinion someone heard from any of the fathers at the monastery.

File it under things to investigate further: you asked in the right thread.

[Philaret]

I am tempted to take a defensive stance, but I didn't come here to put my personal struggle on display. Suffice it to say I have had a long run of dubious encounters with clergy from different jurisdictions. One priest, when discussing the problem of Cyprianism, patristically observed that my "trust generator" is broken. More than one priest gave advice in confession that nearly ended my marriage. And on and on. Please don't prejudge someone without knowing their story. I would love more than anything to have a fully functional trust generator and simply attend the closest church to me.

More to the point, you put a jurisdiction on full blast over covid issues (which obviously I tend to agree with), and yet you merely sideways glance at Cyprianism. It appears everyone decided one day that Cyprianism is really just a harmless theologoumenon, as if opinions on the ecclesiology of the Church are permissible. Along those lines, why not accept ecumenism as just an opinion? Or is it we are now saying that the SIR never really espoused the heresy and consequently had nothing to repent of publically? I believe my caution is warranted.

Look, I sincerely don't want to argue, and I apologize for anything offensive I may have written. My whole purpose for posting was to see if anyone had solid information on the covid issue with Esphigmenou. I think it's a grave matter when there's a break in communion. It's disheartening that information is so hard to come by.

[eish]

I am tempted to take a defensive stance, but I didn't come here to put my personal struggle on display. Suffice it to say I have had a long run of dubious encounters with clergy from different jurisdictions. One priest, when discussing the problem of Cyprianism, patristically observed that my "trust generator" is broken. More than one priest gave advice in confession that nearly ended my marriage. And on and on. Please don't prejudge someone without knowing their story. I would love more than anything to have a fully functional trust generator and simply attend the closest church to me.

You need to attend AN Orthodox church even if it means occasional travel. If NO church is good enough, then indeed the churches cannot be the problem. You are falling for the temptation on the right. Priests making mistakes and being wrong are NOT reasons to write them off. If that is your standard, you will be your own church forever.

Sorry but the “don't judge me” thing isn't going to help our souls. You need a dose of realism and you WILL be judged at the end of days. It is really simple: go to church with an expectation of correct doctrine but not of perfect clergy.

And please keep in mind that advice is not the same thing as monastic obedience. Many people today learn of the Faith from monastic writings and unfortunately that has us showing up at parishes with an expectation straight out of the Philokalia. The Fathers we read about are not even ordinary monks, let alone parish priests.

You were commanded to pick up that cross and carry it.

yet you merely sideways glance at Cyprianism.

Nope. I said the union may be overblown. I did not say the writings of Metropolitan Cyprian were not a problem. His jurisdiction, which produced those writings, no longer exists.

The union may have been mishandled. Fine, maybe it was. What is the official ecclesiology of the GOC-K synod today--that is the question you should be asking. If their official position is that the state church is graceless, then how could we call that Cyprianism? The two are mutually exclusive.

If they are too tolerant of Cyprianites in their ranks, then can you really say that they are in bare-headed preaching of heresy in church, or have they merely not done as much as they might to stomp out crypto-ecumenists in the ranks? You do not have a canonical right to break from your bishop over crypto-heresy. It is about public profession.

On the other hand maybe it is really that bad. I'm not an expert on the union and I am not in the GOC-K, that's why I said “I wonder.” I can't think of anyone calling Cyprianism a “theolegoumenon” so maybe you are jumping at shadows.

Not every church is the GOC-K. If you don't want to argue, then pick one. Why not go to the Matthewites or something. Surely you have no grounds to accuse them of Cyprianism, right? Our brother @haralampopoulosjc can probably set you up.

[Philaret]

Thank you for your concern for my spiritual well-being.