Hey, excuse my red face... my scarf is on too tight.

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Wed 29 September 2004 10:52 am

Justin Kissel wrote:
When I am tempted by a girl in a short skirt in front of me, for example, that should tell me enough about my own sinfulness to keep me from worrying about any possible sinfulness on her part.

Let's discuss this. This is one part of Orthodoxy that has always bothered me. I think too many times people confuse "Temptation" with admiration.

How is it a sin to admire the beauty that GOD created? Like I have said before - God has MADE the opposite sex attractive to us, physically attractive to us. Why is admiring it a sin?

Is looking at the naked human form a sin? In paintings, In sculpture? I just don't think it is.

I think we can celebrate its beauty without making it dirty.

Schultz · Post by **Schultz** » Wed 29 September 2004 11:20 am

excuse the cross posting:

I think it's a matter of degrees.

There's a difference between, "Wow, she's a pretty girl." and "I'd like to see what's under that skirt."

When we get to the point where we can truly appreciate God's creation without sullying it with lust, then we can celebrate beauty w/o making it dirty.

This is something I struggle with on a daily basis. You've said in another post that your cynicism is your cross. The struggle against lust is mine. It's rough in this day and age to even walk down the street. I know that I have trouble admiring beauty w/o making it dirty, but, unlike St. Augustine, I'm not going to put that struggle on the whole of humanity. And as such, someone's ability to admire w/o lust should not be put on the whole of humanity. I get into this alot with a friend of mine who thinks just because he is strong-willed enough to not get addicted to certain substances he has tried that others are in the same boat as him.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that one man's admiration is another man's temptation and we shouldn't be too hard on those who struggle with such a temptation.

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Wed 29 September 2004 11:55 am

I've seen it at other book stores online, but when I did a search for it the first one that caught my attention was Saint Vlad's Seminary Bookstore ($18 ).

Tom,

I've discussed that issue with fellows like Serge a number of times... never with good results. The issue is just too personal for me, in the same way that it apparently also is with Schultz. What to say when this subject comes up (not as a judgment of individuals, but even just discussing general principles) is a hard line to walk. I normally fall to my (spiritual) death when I try to walk that tightrope.

Ephraem · Post by **Ephraem** » Wed 29 September 2004 12:22 pm

Mykael, thank you for posting the link to Seraphim Rose's commentary, love, and advice.

ania · Post by **ania** » Wed 29 September 2004 1:00 pm

... let me just put aside my turkey/bacon/ham Subway melt for a moment to comment...
I agree with Justin & Demitri...
Don't forget that cradles have their own struggles, and since we've had the faith longer, don't forget that the devil tries harder with people who are in the faith than with people who are not.

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Wed 29 September 2004 1:15 pm

ania wrote:
... let me just put aside my turkey/bacon/ham Subway melt for a moment to comment...

You are cradle - and it's WEDNESDAY!!! :shock: Is outrage!!!

Liudmilla · Post by **Liudmilla** » Wed 29 September 2004 2:03 pm

Sad, isn't it? :ohvey: We all suffer from temptations!!!!.. ..Oh well, I guess we'll try harder tomorrow!

Milla