Holy Thorn of Glastonbury

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


Who is smarter?

The Tree

3
60%

Darwin

2
40%
 
Total votes: 5

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DavidHawthorne
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Darwin

Post by DavidHawthorne »

Christ is Among Us!

Let me preface my statement by saying I am a literal 6-day Creation Young Earther. Fr. Seraphim Rose's book Genesis, Creation and Early Man pretty much sums up my position.
Having said that, I don't think Darwin was a God-hater (are there quotes that prove otherwise?) I view him as a tragic figure. He was a very devoted family man and when tragedy struck his family in the death of his daughter Annie he tried to make sense of it all. I believe his system of trying to make sense of the seemingly senseless suffering in the world through the "purposeful" mechanism of natural selection was his answer to his pain. There is a book written by his great-great-grandson called Darwin, His Daughter, and Human Evolution that details the impact his family life had on his theories. Of course, this doesn't argue for or against the plausibility of his ideas on their own merits, but I think it humanizes him for us and makes us fell some pity for the pain he must have felt to have made this his life's work.
In Christ,
Rd. David
(P.S. Ideas do have consequences. Darwinism may or may not have been a major factor in two world wars but the mindset of those who accept the implications of secular humanistic social evolution uncritically colors sosiety in many more ways than we probably realize. Hitler justified both his military aggression to make Germany great and his racial policies on the foundation of evolutionary theory. Perhaps he would have done these things anyway, but they gave him a convenient "intellectual" justification for his actions.)

Ebor
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Post by Ebor »

You have made assertions. You have stated that the Thorn blooms on EO Christmas. Would you please give some links or sources for data to back them up? Posts here are not proof that what is claimed about the plant is what actually happens every year.

Most of the sites I have seen say that the Thorn blooms "around Christmas". They do not give dates. I suggest that if the thorn bloomed every January that they would say something like "Around New Years" or "After New Years Day". Or if it is a site related to English sensibility "Epiphany" or "Twelfth Night".

For example, one site stated that the bloom was provided to the Monarch in 1929. Yet the monarch (George ?) was dismayed that the bloom occurred on Old Christmas in 1752-53

It is not clear what you are meaning here. Perhaps there is a typo. The King of England in 1929 was George the Fifth. In 1753 it was George the Second. Would you please provide a link to this site you mention to clear it up what is meant? Does it have the quote from Charles I also?

The Holy Thorn has no external data upon which to base the date of its blooms. A tropical year is defined by distant stars so that one can compute the passing through the plane of the Ecliptic. The tree apparently does so, and kept time accordingly.

no external data? Temperature, amount of light/length of day, moisture, protected location (south facing for example) can all have an affect on plants.

You say "How does a tree know the Tropical Year?" We see it every year when the snowdrops come up (depending on where you live) in the late winter or early spring calenderwise. Apple trees blossom in the Spring, Crepe Myrtles (around here) in July, Saffron crocuses in the Autumn. These are just some examples from my own yard.

"Passing through the plane of the Ecliptic"? What do you mean here? The path of the sun and the planets in the sky are in the Plane of the Ecliptic.
Some links on The plane of the Ecliptic :
http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/faculty/ritter/ ... iptic.html
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960921.html

The Ecliptic is different then the Celestial Equator:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic

Re the "Tropical Year" here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_year
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/t1/tropyear.asp

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that Science says that everything is "simple" either.

Ebor

Ebor
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Post by Ebor »

Thank you, Reader David, for a sensible and thoughtful post. Charles Darwin seems to often be set up as some sort Evil Incarnate. Actually finding out soemthing about the man is helpful. I suspect that many of his detractors know little or nothing about him.

As to the Third Riech, I think that they used whatever was convenient (and used it incorrectly at that) to further their repulsive aims. Did Hitler actually cite Darwin, do you know?

Thank you.

Ebor

AndyHolland
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Post by AndyHolland »

Go to Google, type "Holy thorn Glastonbury" and you get 34,200 hits as of the writing of this paper. Many have contradictory information of "dubious" quality. I keep forgetting to look this up in my old Britannica.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06579a.htm
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/joseph.htm
http://hometown.aol.com/stjosarimatheach/stjoseph.html
http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/JEK/07/31.html

As to the story about the reporter, I heard it from an Orthodox Priest - I believe it was my brother-in-law.

As to WWI, WWII etc... the fact is that if you follow the law of natural selection to its logical conclusion, you do the sorts of things Hitler did - eliminate competition. The Malthusian doctrine is very evil - and it is a doctrine, a teaching. Hitler, Stalin and those who serve the Anti-Christ, those who do not believe that Life (Y'Shua - Jesus) is annointed (Christos, Christ) and apply the science in cold engineering fashion, arrive at hideous conclusions. The natural thing to do is destroy the competition - or leave poor Lazarus begging at the gate while one eats drinks and makes merry.

As to Darwin, his life is one of contradictions. He was secretly an athiest with a mind to become an Anglican Priest in order to make a living.

One can read Darwin online for free.

http://www.literature.org/authors/darwi ... er-14.html

His recapitulation is not true:

"That many and grave objections may be advanced against the theory of descent with modification through natural selection, I do not deny. I have endeavoured to give to them their full force. Nothing at first can appear more difficult to believe than that the more complex organs and instincts should have been perfected not by means superior to, though analogous with, human reason, but by the accumulation of innumerable slight variations, each good for the individual possessor. Nevertheless, this difficulty, though appearing to our imagination insuperably great, cannot be considered real if we admit the following propositions, namely, -- that gradations in the perfection of any organ or instinct, which we may consider, either do now exist or could have existed, each good of its kind, -- that all organs and instincts are, in ever so slight a degree, variable, -- and, lastly, that there is a struggle for existence leading to the preservation of each profitable deviation of structure or instinct. The truth of these propositions cannot, I think, be disputed."

The burden of proof lies with those who propose the theory to prove it. One can easily simulate such systems, and genetic algorithms are in fact possible and very useful. No one has proven that such systems can arise out of nothing, nor can they arise from simple to more complex forms without a super-abundance of logic.

The problem is - genetic algorithms are algorithms. One actually applies logic in order to get a logical result, and if the logic is not present, the result is wanting. Just as there is entropy in energy - there is probably an entropy of logic. One needs a superabundance of logic to stabilize many natural equations, such as those involved with, for example, fluid dynamics (Poincare instability). The whole subject of Chaous theory is worthy of investigation. There was obviously order and intelligence in the beginning.

When Jesus reprimanded the wind and the waves, they obeyed because God Omnipotent spoke them to calm with the compelling Word (Logos) made man.

"Mary had a little lamb" can be reached easily by an algorithmic process, if one introduces "word" and selects on those words which are true. The problem is, nothing is made without the "Word." When men first studied mathematics, language and such - these simple truths were obvious. IMOH they were obfuscated by those who wished to go their own way outside the truth of the living "Word." Guys like Darwin in Ivory towers.

The fact remains, that the first cause, the super-abundance of logic and Word in the genetic code is obvious to modern observers. There are numerous coincidences in Physics that are compelling. Many in the hard sciences reject evolution - not speciation or slow change, but the conclusion that the change is not directed by a very powerful force of logic. This is because, working with mathematics on a daily basis, one realizes that fundamental limitations are far more numerous than powerful solutions - and all solutions in non-trivial multidimensional problems become approximations that rapidly diverge without a superabundance of compelling logic to control them.

Again, the first cause of the Universe is God, and God the Father is the Creator, God the Son the eternal Word, and God the Holy Spirit - the very Spirit of Truth as Holy Scripture - which is literally true in all important ways, makes clear (With Riemann tensor math - you can get a literal 7 day creation - it took Einstein a decade to figure it out to describe General Relativity).

andy - dubious asserter

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DavidHawthorne
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Darwin to Hitler

Post by DavidHawthorne »

Christ is Among Us!
Ebor- I have read quotes of Hitler justifying himself in light of Darwin's theories as well as the same from some of his cohorts such as Goebbels. In one of my more bored moments I have even seen Darwinian justifications for his policies on National Socialist sites so even the Nazis themselves see the connection. Even the name of his book "Mein Kamph" or "My struggle" and the arguments in it reflect the Darwinian struggle for existience. Here is a link for a scholarly work connecting Hitler and Darwin: http://www.worldmag.com/subscriber/disp ... m?id=10552
Many of Darwin's own writings reflect a pro-White racism that is extremely distasteful today. But I think Darwin would have withered if he had seen the logical and ultimate expression of his ideas applied as Hitler and Stalin lived them out. He would not have supported active genocide, he was content to let the "inferior races" die out in the competition for survival due to natural selection.
This is a big problem of Darwinism for me. In our Church, someone who lives out the Orthodox Christian life without reserve and wholeheartedly ends up being a saint. If anyone lives out wholeheartedly and without reserve the principles of Darwinism, the "saints" of that system end up being a Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao. We cannot condemn them with some antiquated moral code. We have to praise them because they took natural selection and competition for survival by the horns and came out on top. I believe the widespread acceptance of social Darwinism is a major factor behind the collapse of Christianity in the world but Thank God! most people still have enough of a Christian conscience that they do not take the system to its logical conclusions.
In Christ,
Rd. David

AndyHolland
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Post by AndyHolland »

Thank all of you,

I have erred in allowing personal hatred of Darwinism to infect my soul, and this came out in the posts. Thank you CGW and Ebor for pointing this out.

I had no right to condemn anyone - however, I do hold the opinion as do others, that if one follows the logic of Malthus and Darwin to their natural conclusions, the result is hideous. Facts are facts, but I have no right to judge - let God arise and his enemies be scattered.

With Christ, we are all equal, and that is intrinsically beautiful. The smallest and meekest have exceeding worth, and I prefer this view of Christ which is the true one, where the strong serve the weak out of love and Holy fear.

As to science, the mass extinctions show explosions of life following major catastrophes - and any insurance writer would call them acts of God :) As a scientific type, I don't say that variation, speciation and gradual change and 'arising out of the dust' (as the Bible puts the Creation of man) do not occur. What is clear as a scientific type is the Darwinists have proven nothing, and the burden of proof is on them. As a mathematical type, there is no logic, machine, construction or simulation of anything remotely as powerful as the genetic code. It took a decade to map it - and mapping is not understanding.

Genetic algorithms tend to prove the gut feel of many - that intelligence is incredibly difficult to come by by any process we can hope to understand. Intelligence can only arise out of intelligence, and "Word" and symbolic patterns are key. It is the genetic code that provides all the many variants, and those that survive do so for reasons we cannot hope to observe to draw a conclusion as to ORIGIN. God has allot of room to play in the genetic code, as he does in quantum mechanics. Christ's miracles are especially (super) natural. The devil's games and acts are un-natural.

With respect to the Holy Thorn, according to my Britannica (1952?) Mamesbury in 1125 recorded the history of Glastonbury and left out Joseph of Arimathea and the Holy Thorn coming from his staff. In 1185 the abbey was burned. In 1191, later editors added the part about Joseph of Arimathea and the "legend" of the staff.

Did they add it to Mamesbury's record because they felt the need to be comprehensive? Where they just fibbing? One could argue either way - certainly with the destruction of the Abbey library, there was a desire to preserve the tradition.

There is ambiguity as to the exact timing of the blooms. However, Charles I pointedly referred to the date as being Old Christmas (as have others) and he used this as a defence of Anglicanism versus Roman Catholicism.

http://hometown.aol.com/stjosarimatheach/stjoseph.html

This was just prior to the destruction of the original tree by a Puritan "Reformer." Perhaps this accounts for the +/- associated with some of the blooms currently observed by some cuttings.

andy

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CGW
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Post by CGW »

AndyHolland wrote:

There is ambiguity as to the exact timing of the blooms. However, Charles I pointedly referred to the date as being Old Christmas (as have others) and he used this as a defence of Anglicanism versus Roman Catholicism.

Well, reading the text, he used it to taunt his wife's priest. In other words, he wan't concerned about truth; he was simply digging for something to justify himself in the face of his enemy. And isn't it possible that this what you are doing here?

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