Salvation outside the church

[Paul7]

In the Orthodox Church is there a teaching that those that haven't converted before death might be able to convert after death?

[joasia]

CHRIST IS RISEN!

NO.

In Christ, Joanna

[Paul7]

Thank you for the reply Joanna
I am not an Orthodox Christian.
Would I have to convert to the Orthodox church to have a chance of going to heaven? Would my loved ones who also aren't Orthodox Christians need to convert to the Orthodox Church to have a chance of going to heaven?

Thank You for any responses.

[drewmeister2]

Thank you for the reply Joanna
I am not an Orthodox Christian.
Would I have to convert to the Orthodox church to have a chance of going to heaven? Would my loved ones who also aren't Orthodox Christians need to convert to the Orthodox Church to have a chance of going to heaven?

Thank You for any responses.

This is a hard one to answer, and may be better answered by someone else, or probably even better by a True Orthodox priest. I would say yes, if you want to save your soul, you need to become baptized into the One, Holy True Church of Christ, the Orthodox Church. However, is that to say that all non-Orthodox go to hell? I wouldn't say so; God can use His Mercy to save whom He wishes. The Orthodox Church does not say who is in hell and who isn't. We can't make such judgments precisely because it is up to God's Mercy. However, why put your soul in a position where it might not be saved? Even when you convert, though, you still must struggle for a good and God-pleasing life; conversion is no guarantee of salvation. But in order to struggle properly for salvation, you need to convert. So I would say in order to be saved, you should do two things: convert to Orthodoxy, and live an Orthodox life to the best of your ability (which can only be done with the help of the Mysteries in the Orthodox Church), and from there it is up to God's Mercy. I hope this makes some sense. If I have said anything wrong here, I invite people to please correct me.

[Paul7]

Thank you for your response Drewmeister. I'll think about what you have said. Please believe me I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I am really searching for the truth here. I believe you said that you were Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy. (Please forgive me if I read wrong or misunderstood) I wanted to ask you if you would still leave the Catholic church if the apostate Vatican II council hadn't occured and if it was still using the traditional mass and taught the dogmas it had always taught. What convinced you that Orthodoxy was the true path to salvation? Also, doesn't it produce some sort of fear in you that the true Catholic Church has always taught that absolutely nobody who dies outside the church will be saved and this can be traced very early in writings from St. Cyril, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory the Great, St. Cyprian, St. Chrysostom and many others. This has always been maintained until Vatican II. Whereas, even the most traditional Orthodox won't ever say for sure that those outside the church go to hell. If you had a choice and both churches seemed plausible as being the true church, which would you choose? The one church on earth that holds to 'Extra ecclesium nulla salus', Outside the Church there is no Salvation. Also, True Catholics relate to Vatican II and the blasphemous and demonic antipopes that reigned following that council, in the same way that the True Orthodox relate to the sergianist church in russia or the new calendar ecumenists.

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I've read a story about a king whose kingdom was protestant, following the reformation.( Sorry this is a bad synopsis of the story, I forgot where I read it) The king wanting to know what religion to follow brought in leaders of the Catholic and protestant churches in his kingdom to one gathering to try to figure where the true path to salvation was.  He eventually asked both the protestants and the Catholics if one could be saved in either denomination.  The protestants said it was possible for a good Catholic to be saved.  The Catholics said it was impossible for a protestant to be saved.  The King decided in favor of the Catholics saying that simple prudence would favor the catholic position.  A person unsure of what Church is true, should choose the one church that claims to be the absolutely only way to salvation.  

  Also, the Orthodox say that the early notion of rome and supremacy was not anything like its claims in the 11th century compared to the early church. Yet this claim seems to be not true when you read numerous references to the right the apostle St.  Peter was granted as head of the church by fathers like St. Leo the Great.  Even the Council of Ephesus (I believe) had within its acts the statements made by the papal legates that are so obvious in their intentions, yet we are supposed to believe that such claims were just precocious gestures without any real significance?  Why was Rome holding primacy at all during that time and the following centuries if it was making untrue claims? Why would the entire church stay silent while it was being taken over by power hungry tyrants?  The west too had saints in the church during those years and many of them explicitly make reference to Rome in the exact way that Abbe Guetee and other historical revisionists try to state was absent from record.   Perhaps the Orthodox position is correct and Abbe Guetee's The Papacy and other writings similar to it are just over done? 

Maybe this is the wrong place to discuss this. Please forgive me if it is. You stated that it would be best to contact a priest. I think you are correct. Are there any priests that might be able to help me on this site?
Thank you for you help

[drewmeister2]

Yes, you are right, I was Catholic (and am currently a Catechumen). However, even if Vatican II hadn't happened, I would still leave. I am not leaving purely over Rome's modernism in the present day, but because of their heretical teachings that have been taught for centuries now. Catholicism also says though that non-Catholics can go to Heaven. Fr. Feeney, a Catholic priest in the early 20th century, was excommunicated for saying that all non-Catholics go to hell, and that no non-Catholics can be saved. And he was excommunicated before Vatican II, well before Vatican II. So yes, both Orthodoxy and Catholicism say Outside the Church there is no salvation, but that is not to say God can't do what He wishes. As for Papism, I will have to get back to you on that later, maybe someone else can help here, but there are many articles about it and how it is heretical. Papism is a form of humanism when you truly come to see it for what it is. As for priests on the forum, there is Father Siluan, and I know a few others somewhere around here. Also, go to the Map on this Cafe and you can find clergy near you that you can talk with or email.

[Paul7]

Thanks Drewmeister
So the Feeneyites aren't true Catholics?! I've read about Fr. Feeney, some say his excommunication wasn't real or whatever, the whole things tiring. Thanks a lot for your help. I will try to speak with a priest. Also, do you or anybody else know where I can find a copy of Adam Zernikaw or Zernicavius' book on the Filioque insertion in the west. I've seen it referenced numerous times in orthodox writings, is there an English translation sold somewhere?

In reference to what I wrote above:

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   It was wrong of me to refer to the name "feeneyites" in the same derogatory tone as those who seek to destroy his work do.   I would like to ask for forgiveness. There were never any 'feeneyites'.  They were good CATHOLICS.  Catholics have always held the dogma that there is absolutely no salvation outside the Catholic Church.  The  church fathers have always held this dogma..  Fr. Feeney was NOT a heretic.  He wasn't 'excommunicated' for heresy.  People hated what he had to say because he was preaching the undadulterated gospel of the son of God.  The Lord commanded his disciples to go to all nations teaching the gospel and baptizing in the name of the Trinity.  It says in scripture that those who believe and are baptized will be saved and those who don't believe will be damned. How will those in darkness be turned to light? By hearing the word of God when proclaimed by a messenger of God.  By believing with supernatural faith what was deposited and preached by the apostles and their successors.   Those who wish to defame Fr. Feeney's character despise the fact that he zealously guarded the doctrine that there is only ONE way to salvation.  He wouldn't accept, just as the church has never accepted, statements and actions being made in his day by those who had not an ounce of belief in their church, and as a result sought to cower and associate with all faiths and all sects in a 'brotherhood of love.' 

Fr. Feeney - Bread of Life
"They know that those who cannot indicate where salvation is in clear reply, simply do not know where salvation is! Saying fast that there is no salvation outside the Church, and then adding that sincerity outside the Church is salvation within the Church, is the most
diabolical double-talk ever uttered in the name of religious teaching!"