Thank you for your responses. Below I've posted some quotes from church fathers that can easily be attained by a google search. Please excuse me for the length of the post but I believe that its important to hear what the fathers say on the necessity of abiding in the church for salvation. I don't believe this is a small issue. If you look at the thousands of sects who say that they have the true faith and true interpretation, you will notice that although they say they have the true faith, they don't limit the church and the saved to those who confess that faith. None of the protestants hold their churches as the only way to heaven although they claim to have the true faith. And this seems to be true with the orthodox church as well. Just read on the Orthodoxinfo.com website the response of Metropolitan Philaret to someone who questions what the state is of those who are non-orthodox. There is also a piece by the theologian Fr. Pomazansky which is similar in its contents. This same vain can be seen in the writings and life of Fr. Seraphim Rose. There is also a book written by a Mr. Patrick Barnes on that website that discusses this subject supposedly with the orthodox view in mind. Compare this with the very clear teachings of the fathers below. They were not worried about offensive statements but truth. And truth itself is sharp, bitter and will cause someone to either rebel and harden or break from their sin and conform. A true confessor would anathematize and call to repentance what the church has condemned. It may seem harsh to our modern ears to say that those outside the church will be condemned, yet it is clear this is what the fathers believed and proclaimed it unabashedly.
Also its not 'Western Rationalism' that makes one want to know whether the true church is the only ark of salvation. This is a weak arguement and only makes some Orthodox seem as if they are basing all their dogmatic beliefs on negating Western Theology. We are rational creatures, and just as in the secular world we would have to question someone who asserts a truth, then in the next breath denies it or even subtly alters or diminishes it, so much the more should we be wary in the realm of eternal salvation and the fate of our souls.
Have you ever heard anyone in the modern true orthodox church assert that it was absolutely mandatory for one to convert to the faith to be saved?
Article on Fr. Seraphim Rose
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/h ... rodox.aspx
Will the heterodox be Saved?
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/m ... rodox.aspx
Mr. Patrick Barnes' book
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/status.aspx
Fr. Micheal Pomazansky
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/pomaz_status.aspx
The Holy Bible: "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added unto the Church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:46-7)
Code: Select all
"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you [Jews:] but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, "I hath set thee to be a light to the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth."" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:46-8)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)
Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died A.D. 386): "Abhor all heretics...heed not their fair speaking or their mock humility; for they are serpents, a brood of vipers.' Remember that, when Judas saidHail Rabbi,' the salutation was an act of betrayal. Do not be deceived by the kiss but beware of the venom. Abhor such men, therefore, and shun the blasphemers of the Holy Spirit, for whom there is no pardon. For what fellowship have you with men without hope. Let us confidently say to God regarding all heretics, Did I not hate, O Lord, those who hated Thee, and did I not pine away because of Your enemies?' For there is an enmity that is laudable, as it is written,I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.' Friendship with the serpent produces enmity with God, and death. Let us shun those from whom God turns away." (The Fathers of the Church)
Pope St. Clement I, A.D. 88-97: "Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. From this previously-existing and most true Church, it is very clear that these later heresies, and others which have come into being since then, are counterfeit and novel inventions." (Epistle to the Corinthians)
Saint Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (died A.D. 107): "Let no man deceive himself. Unless he believes that Christ Jesus has lived in the flesh, and shall confess His cross and passion, and the blood which He shed for the salvation of the world, he shall not attain eternal life, whether he be a king, or a priest, or a ruler, or a private person, a master or a servant, a man or a woman." (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans)
Code: Select all
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the Bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ. (Epistle to the Philadelphians)
Saint Justin Martyr (died A.D. 165): "And you deceive yourselves while you fancy that, because you are the seed of Abraham after the flesh, therefore you shall fully inherit the good things announced to be bestowed by God through Christ. For no one, not even one of them, has anything to look for, but only those who in mind are assimilated to the faith of Abraham, and who have recognised all the mysteries. [...] So that it becomes you to eradicate this hope from your souls, and hasten to know in what way forgiveness of sins, and a hope of inheriting the promised good things, shall be yours. But there is no other way than this, - to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the rest to live sinless lives. [...]
Code: Select all
"Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall not be saved." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew.)
Saint Martial of Limoges (died A.D. 165): "All who do not confess Christ to be true God shall go into eternal fire."
Saint Theophilus of Antioch (died A.D. 181): "And as, again, there are other islands, rocky and without water, and barren, and infested by wild beasts, and uninhabitable, and serving only to injure navigators and the storm-tossed, on which ships are wrecked, and those driven among them perish, - so there are doctrines of error - I mean heresies - which destroy those who approach them. For they are not guided by the word of truth; but as pirates, when they have filled their vessels, drive them on the fore-mentioned places, that they may spoil them: so also it happens in the case of those who err from the truth, that they are all totally ruined by their error." (To Autolyctus)
Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202): "Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others [heretics] which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money in a bank,] lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thiefs and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. [...]
Code: Select all
"Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church, those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen away from the truth. And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the alter of God - namely, strange doctrines, - shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud. But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [shall] remain among those in hell, being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and, Abiron. But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did." (Against the Heresies)
Saint Pionius (died A.D. 250): "I am a Christian and belong to the Catholic Church. Would to God I could persuade all of you to become Christians, for it will be the worse for you to burn eternally after death."
Origen (died A.D. 254): "Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved." (In Iesu Nave homiliae)
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258):
"For whereas in the Gospels, and in the epistles of the Apostles, the name of Christ is alleged for the remission of sins; it is not in such a way as that the Son alone, without the Father, or against the Father, can be of advantage to anybody; but that it might be shown to the Jews, who boasted as to their having the Father, that the Father would profit them nothing, unless they believed on the Son whom He had sent. For they who know God the Father the Creator, ought also to know Christ the Son, lest they flatter and applaud themselves about the Father alone, without the acknowledgement of His Son, who also said, "No man cometh to the Father but by me." But He, the same, sets forth that it is the knowledge of the two that saves, when he says, "And this is life eternal, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." Therefore, from the preaching and the testimony of Christ Himself, the Father who sent must be known first, then afterwards Christ, who was sent, and there cannot be a hope of salvation except by knowing the two together. [...] "Can the power of baptism be greater or of more avail than confession, than suffering, when one confesses Christ before men and is baptized in his own blood? And yet even this baptism does not benefit a heretic, although he has confessed Christ, and been put to death outside the Church, unless the patrons and advocates of heretics declare that the heretics who are slain in a false confession of Christ are martyrs, and assign to them the glory and the crown of martyrdom contrary to the testimony of the apostle, who says that it will profit them nothing although they were burnt and slain. [..] Not even the baptism of a public confession and blood can profit a heretic, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Epistle LXXII)
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258):
Lactantius (died A.D. 310): "It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation. No one ought to flatter himself with persevering strife. For the contest is respecting life and salvation, which, unless it is carefully and diligently kept in view, will be lost and extinguished." (The Divine Institutes)
Saint Ambrose, Doctor, (died A.D. 397): "And He [Christ] affirms that they act with devilish spirit who divide the Church of God, so that he includes the heretics and schismatics of all times, to whom He denies forgiveness, for every other sin is concerned with single persons, this is a sin against all." (Concerning Repentance)
Code: Select all
"The Lord severed the Jewish people from his kingdom, and heretics and schismatics are also severed from the kingdom of God and from the Church. Our Lord makes it perfectly clear that every assembly of heretics and schismatics belongs not to God, but to the unclean spirit." (Explanation of Luke) ""But woe unto you who are rich!" We may here however understand by the rich man the Jewish people, or the heretics, or at least the Pharisees, who, rejoicing in an abundance of words, and a kind of hereditary pride of eloquence, have overstepped the simplicity of true faith, and gained to themselves useless treasures." (cf. Catena Aurea by Saint Thomas Aquinas, Lk. 6:24)
Saint John Chrysostom, Doctor, (died A.D. 407): "We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith." (De Capto Eutropia) "We should mourn for those who are dying without the Faith. [...] And well should the pagan weep and lament who, not knowing God, goes straight to punishment when he dies!" (On the Consolation of Death) Saint Gaudentius of Brescia (died A.D. 410): "It is certain that all men of Noah's time perished, except those in the Ark, which was a figure of the Church. Likewise, they cannot in any way now be saved who are aliens from the Apostolic faith and the Catholic Church." (De Lect. Evangel.)
Saint Augustine, Doctor, (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermon to the People of Caesaria) ""But I say," adds he, "have they not heard? "Yea, verily; their sounds went out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."" Before, however, all this had been accomplished, before the actual preaching of the gospel reaches the ends of all the earth - because there are some remote nations still (although it is said that they are very few) to whom the preached gospel has not found its way, - what must human nature do, or what has it done - for it has either not heard that all this was to take place, or has not yet learned that it was accomplished - but believe in God who made heaven and earth, by whom also it perceived by nature that it had been created, and lead a right life, and thus accomplish His will, uninstructed with any faith in the death and resurrection of Christ? Well, if this could have been done, or can still be done, then for my part I have to say what the apostle said in regard to the law: "Then Christ died in vain." For if he said this about the law, which only the nation of the Jews received, how much more justly may it be said of the law of nature, which the whole human race has received, "If righteousness come by nature, then Christ died in vain." If, however, Christ did not die in vain, then human nature cannot by any means be justified and redeemed from God's most righteous wrath - in a word, from punishment - except by faith and the sacrament of the blood of Christ." (On Nature and Grace) "For if, according to the word of truth, no one is delivered from the condemnation which was incurred through Adam except through faith in Jesus Christ, and yet from this condemnation they shall not deliver themselves who shall be able to say that they have not heard the gospel of Christ, on the ground that "faith cometh by hearing," how much less shall they deliver themselves who shall say, "We have not received perseverance!" [...] thou mightest persevere if thou wouldest. And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, [...] are not made to differ from that mass which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation." (On Rebuke and Grace) "They who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they are unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. "For all have sinned" - whether in Adam or in themselves - "and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23.)"" (On Nature and Grace) "The comparison of the Church with Paradise shows us that men may indeed receive baptism outside her pale, but that no one outside can either receive or retain the salvation of eternal happiness. For, as the words of the Scripture testify, the streams from the fountain of Paradise flowed copiously even beyond its bounds. Record is indeed made of their names; and through what countries they flow, and that they are situated beyond the limits of Paradise, is known to all; and yet in Mesopotamia, and in Egypt, to which countries those rivers extended, there is not found that blessedness of life which is recorded in Paradise. Accordingly, although the waters of Paradise are found beyond its boundaries, yet its happiness is in Paradise alone. So, therefore, the baptism of the Church may exist outside, but the gift of the life of happiness is found alone within the Church, which has been founded on a rock, which has received the keys of binding and losing. [...] "This indeed is true, that "baptism is not unto salvation except within the Catholic Church." For in itself it can indeed exist outside the Catholic Church as well; but there it is not unto salvation, because there it does not work salvation; just as that sweet savour of Christ is not unto salvation in them that perish, though from a fault not in itself but in them." (On Baptism against the Donatists) "Nor indeed, is it of heresies alone that the apostle says, "that they that do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." But it may be worth while to look for a moment at the things which he groups together. "The works of the flesh," he says, "are manifest, which are these; fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Let us suppose someone, therefore, chaste, continent, free from covetousness, no idolater, hospitable, charitable to the needy, no man's enemy, not contentious, patient, quiet, jealous of none, envying none, sober, frugal, but a heretic; it is of course clear to all that for this one fault only, that he is a heretic, he will fail to inherit the kingdom of God. [...] "Our faith - that is, the Catholic faith, - distinguishes the righteous from the unrighteous not by the law of works, but be that of faith, because the just by faith lives. By which distinction it results that the man who leads his life without murder, without theft, without false witness, without coveting other mens' goods, giving due honour to his parents, completely chaste, most liberal in almsgiving, most patient of injuries; who not only does not deprive another of his goods, but does not even ask again for what has been taken away from himself; or who has even sold all his own property and appointed it to the poor, and possesses nothing which belongs to him as his own; - with such a character as this, laudable as it seems to be, if he has not the true and Catholic faith in God, must yet depart from life to condemnation. [...] "And it is brought about, on account of this great difference, that although with no possibility of a doubt a persevering integrity of virginity is preferable to conjugal chastity, yet a woman even twice married, if she be a Catholic, is preferred to a professed virgin that is a heretic; nor is she in such wise preferred because this one is better in God's kingdom, but because the other is not there at all." (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians) ""Can the power of baptism," says Cyprian, "be greater than confession? than martyrdom? that a man should confess Christ before men, and be baptized in his own blood? And yet", he goes on to say, "neither does this baptism profit the heretic, even though for confessing Christ he be put to death outside the Church." This is most true. [...] "Salvation," he says, "is not outside the Church." Who says that it is? And therefore whatever men have that belongs to the Church outside the Church, it profits them nothing toward salvation outside the Church." (On Baptism against the Donatists.)
Saint Prosper of Aquitaine, A.D. 463: “From every nation and every condition thousands of aged people, thousands of youths, thousands of children daily receive the grace of adoption. [...] For all who at any time will be called and will enter into the kingdom of God, have been marked out in the adoption which preceded all times. And just as none of the infidels is counted among the elect, so none of the god-fearing is excluded from the blessed.” (The Call of All Nations)
Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533): "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only all pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."
"I am glad indeed that you have such a concern for keeping the true Faith with no shade of unbelief, the Faith without which conversion not only would be of no use but would not really be conversion at all. Indeed, apostolic authority tells us that, "without faith, it is impossible to please God. For Faith is the foundation of all things. Faith is the beginning of human salvation. Without it, no one can belong to the number of the children of God, because, without it, neither will anyone gain the grace of justification in this world nor possess eternal life in the world to come.
"Whoever is outside this Church which has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven is not teaching the path to heaven but to hell; nor is he heading toward the house of eternal life, but he is hurrying toward the punishment of eternal death; not only if he remains a pagan without baptism but also, even if he perseveres as a heretic after baptism." (On the Forgiveness of Sins. Fulgentius, Selected Works, Catholic University Press, Washington, 1997.)
"Grace [of justification] is not properly esteemed by any one who supposes that it is given to all men, when not only does the faith not pertain to all, but even at the present time some nations may yet be found to whom the preaching of the faith has not yet come. But the Blessed Apostle says: "How then are they to call upon Him in whom they have not believed? or how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? but how are they to hear, without preaching?" Grace, then, is not given to all; for certainly they cannot be participants in that grace, who are not believers; nor can they believe if it is found that the preaching of the faith has never come to them at all." (Synodal Epistle of Saint Fulgentius and other African Bishops. Rev. William A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, volume three, Liturgical Press.) "Anyone who has received the Sacrament of Baptism but remained away from the Catholic Church is never prepared to obtain eternal life. Such a person, even if he is very generous with almsgiving and even pours out his blood for the name of Christ, because of the fact that in this life he has not held tightly to the unity of the Catholic Church, he will not have eternal salvation. [...] Hold most firmly and never doubt that any heretic or schismatic whatsoever, baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, if he will not have been gathered into the Catholic Church, no matter how many alms he may have given, even if he shed his blood for the name of Christ, can never be saved." (To Peter on the Faith) "In this way, with Jesus coming, they can be found within that house. outside of which no one can be freed from death, because just as in Jericho anyone who was outside that house could gain no assistance for his life, so outside the Catholic Church, no one will receive the forgiveness of sins; and just as within the Catholic Church, "one believes with the heart and so is justified," so outside the same Church, unorthodox faith does not procure justification but punishment, and a wicked confession does not acquire salvation for the one who confesses but brings death. Outside this Church, neither does the Christian name help anyone, nor does baptism save, nor is a pure sacrifice offered to God, nor is the forgiveness of sins received, nor is the happiness of eternal life found." (On the Forgiveness of Sins.)
Pope Pelagius II, A.D. 578-590: "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. [...] Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. [...] Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. [... If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Dilectionis Vestrae) "We can no more pray for a deceased infidel than we can for the devil, since they are condemned to the same eternal and irrevocable damnation." (Dialogues, IV)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Doctor, A.D. 590-604: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia) "Consider that therefore whoever is not in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have God." (Epistle to Schismatic Bishops) "And indeed we have learnt from the ancient institution of the Fathers that whosoever among heretics are baptized in the name of the Trinity, when they return to Holy Church, may be recalled to the bosom of mother Church either by unction of chrism, or by imposition of hands, or by profession of faith only. Hence the West reconciles Arians to the Catholic Church by imposition of hands, but the East by the unction of Holy chrism. But mono-physites and others are received by a true confession only, because holy baptism, which they have received among heretics, then acquires in them the power of cleansing, when either the former receive the Holy Spirit by imposition of hands, or the latter are united to the bowels of the holy and universal Church by reason of their confession of the true faith." (Epistle LXVII) “Since, then, by my own public profession you know the entireness of our belief, it is fitting that you have no further scruple concerning the Church of Saint Peter, Prince of the Apostles. But persist in the true Faith, and ground your life on the rock of the Church, that is, in his confession: lest your many tears and your good works avail nothing, if they be separated from the true Faith. For as branches wither without a root, so works, however good they seem, are nothing if separated from the solidity of the Faith." (To Theodelinda, Queen of the Lombards)
Saint Bede the Venerable O.S.B., Doctor, (died A.D. 735): "He who will not willingly and humbly enter the gate of the Church will certainly be damned and enter the gate of hell whether he wants to or not." (Sermon 16) "Without this confession, without this faith, no one can enter the kingdom of God." (Sermon 16)
Saint Peter Mavimenus (died A.D. 743): "Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed." (Roman Martyrology, February 21st) [Upon this profession of the faith, the infidel murdered him.]
