Breaking away from World Orthodoxy over Heresies

[尼古拉前执事]

In another thread things started going off topic about what the Fathers did when they learned their bishops were in heresy, and it was suggested a new thread talking about what was done in the past for the heresies of Apollinarianism, Arianism, Ebionitism, Eutchianism, Montanism, Macedonianism, Manichaeism, Docetism, Donatism, Pelagianism, Nestorianism, Monphysitism, Gnosticism, Origenism, Monothelitism, Iconoclasm, Noeticism, Monarchianism, Marcionism, Subordinationism, etc. and how we can compare those actions to todays heresies of Modernism, Secularism, Ecumenism, etc.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Nicholas,

I doubt you will get any takers. I find it the hallmark of those in the new-calendarist communion to lack any ability to discuss such matters in the light of the lives of the Saints. This is why it often turns into personal attacks, an almost personal diary type message completly lacking in substance, or the usual silence. Always.

Recently the OCA's newspaper periodical had an article about how Traditionalists break away because they lack love, were paranoid, felt threatened, lacked the ability to reason, ect, ect, ect. Missing from the article, was any precendence or example of the Saints, statement of a Holy Synod, or any other credible example of the Church. There was absolutley no attempt whatsoever to address anything "traditionalists" stand for. Again, it was like reading a diary of light personal thinking - an easy escape from a struggling conscience.

Now I am not saying this at a personal level about anyone here, I am just noting from personal experience that "world orthodoxy", deep inside, know they are naked before the Church. Therefore, they never entertain such discussions as you suggest here. The only discussion will be of a personal nature.

[Natasha]

OOD wrote: "Recently the OCA's newspaper periodical had an article about how Traditionalists break away because they lack love, were paranoid, felt threatened, lacked the ability to reason, ect, ect, ect"

Exactly the reason I cannot even bring myself to read anymore of their publications! How ridiculous and judgemental!

[Justin Kissel]

Oddly enough, I often get the same feeling when I am talking with people who hold to a more extreme ecclesiology. They rarely address your points head on, but simply keep repeating the same proof texts, as though what St. Mark of Ephesus said, or what St. Theodore the Studite said, or what some other saint being quoted said, is applicable in every situation and need not be discussed. I mean no offense, but sometimes I feel like I really am talking with a fundamentalist, because people just seem to repeat their favorite proof texts and assume that the meaning and application of the text is impossible to miss, and that anyone who misses it must be trying to avoid the truth.

[尼古拉前执事]

Well I have had experiences go both way. Often, I think, Extreme Traditionalists are always under attack and so they are naturally on the defensive and sometimes the offensive in anticipation of an attack. But when they calm down and let their guard down these same people can be some of the most loving Christians one can know. Of course online, our negatives seem to be amplified, no matter where we are in the spectrum, in my experience.

[Justin Kissel]

Let me give an example. People show quotes demonstrating that there is no grace in the mysteries of heretics, that we must seperate ourselves from heretics, etc. This is affirmed, but it is also shown in response (along with the concession that what was said is true) that this seperation doesn't always happen instantly, and that sometimes it takes a long time before there is a final break in communion--sometimes centuries, even if the people are in error and many of their churches teach heresy during that time. In response to this we get the same proof texts repeated, which in no way answer the points.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Fair enough Justin, I can also see why you would say this. I have read things which you wrote which I did not directly address. Sometimes it is easier to ignore them which I am also guilty of.

Please Justin, paste a few of your points which you feel I ignored (if it was me).

EDIT: I would like to address your last post, is this what you think I hve ignored?