80 years = eternity

[TomS]

I also posted this on OC.Net, but was wondering if anyone here had some insight.

Why would God give us ₈₀ years on earth, and then based upon those 80 years either sentence us to eternal damnation or eternal happiness? 80 years = eternity? How does that make any sense?

I am sure that this question been addressed in patristic writings. Can someone point me to treatise?

Thanks

[GOCPriestMark]

Hi Tom, Perhaps I mis-understand what you are asking, but here are my thoughts, (sorry, no treatise).

80 years? When and where does God say He gives us 80 years?
Man on earth is in exile from his true home in paradise. The days of our lives, however long they may be, are given to test us as to whether we really desire God's paradise or not. It makes sense to God to reward with eternity those who, in a relatively short time, accept His way, truth and life. It is for us to turn our mind and heart continually toward Him, through what He has revealed to His people.

Why does it not make sense that God gives us eternity after testing our desires for a short time? Parents do a similar thing with their children.

[TomS]

Why does it not make sense that God gives us eternity after testing our desires for a short time? Parents do a similar thing with their children.

Ummm, I really don't think so. If our children misbehave do we burn them with matches? You really equate punishing a child for a short period of time as opposed to ETERNAL damnation, can you?

I mean, why are we ALWAYS to forgive yet God can codemn a soul to torment for eternity?

[GOCPriestMark]

Parents teach children right and wrong so that they can make the right choices when they are adults, but children have the free will to make those choices for themselves.

God made man free. He taught him the right way which leads to eternal blessedness, even wrote it on his heart. But man is free to make that choice himself. He chooses while still living on earth 'in time', but that choice is for all eternity. For the man whose desire is for God, eternity is blessedness. But for the man whose desire is for the things of this world, which shall soon pass away, eternity is suffering, because those things which he desired are gone. If he spends his life rejecting the love of God, then that very love burns him because that is all there is for eternity.

God ordered the universe. He placed in it natural laws. He explained the natural consequences for our actions, good and bad. We choose yea or nay and it is our choice which results in our blessedness or our burning. It is not God who punishes us, but our own choice. God's desire for man is his deification, but if man rejects it and doesn't want to be united with God, then God allows him to have his way.

Would you like for God to give blessedness to those who do not want it?

Are you going to ask God to make the system work another way because it doesn't make sense to you?

[TomS]

Are you going to ask God to make the system work another way because it doesn't make sense to you?

This assumes that I believe that you are correct in your understanding of salvation. I am not at that point.

[GOCPriestMark]

Thanks for the inspiration to do some good reading this evening! Perhaps some of this from St. Gregory Nazianzen and St. John of Damascus will be helpful:

1. But further, attend, I pray, to the very principle of justice, and come to thine own case. Thou hast different sorts of servants: and some are good and some bad; thou honourest therefore the good, and smitest the bad. And if thou art a judge, to the good thou awardest praise, and to the transgressors, punishment. Is then justice observed by thee a mortal man; and with God, the ever changeless King of all, is there no retributive justice? Nay, to deny it is impious. For consider what I say. Many murderers have died in their beds unpunished; where then is the righteousness of God? Yea, ofttimes a murderer guilty of fifty murders is beheaded once; where then shall he suffer punishment for the forty and nine? Unless there is a judgment and a retribution after this world, thou chargest God with unrighteousness. Marvel not, however, because of the delay of the judgment; no combatant is crowned or disgraced, till the contest is over; and no president of the games ever crowns men while yet striving, but he waits till all the combatants are finished, that then deciding between them he may dispense the prizes and the chaplets. Even thus God also, so long as the strife in this world lasts, succours the just but partially, but afterwards He renders to them their rewards fully.

2. I know the glittering sword, and the blade made drunk in heaven, bidden to slay, to bring to naught, to make childless, and to spare neither flesh, nor marrow, nor bones. I know Him, Who, though free from passion, meets us like a bear robbed of her whelps, like a leopard in the way of the Assyrians, not only those of that day, but if anyone now is an Assyrian in wickedness: nor is it possible to escape the might and speed of His wrath when He watches over our impieties, and His jealousy, which knoweth to devour His adversaries, pursues His enemies to the death. I know the emptying, the making void, the making waste, the melting of the heart, and knocking of the knees together, such are the punishments of the ungodly. I do not dwell on the judgments to come, to which indulgence in this world delivers us, as it is better to be punished and cleansed now than to be transmitted to the torment to come, when it is the time of chastisement, not of cleansing. For as he who remembers God here is conqueror of death (as David has most excellently sung) so the departed have not in the grave confession and restoration; for God has confined life and action to this world, and to the future the scrutiny of what has been done.

3. What shall we do in the day of visitation, with which one of the Prophets terrifies me, whether that of the righteous sentence of God against us, or that upon the mountains and hills, of which we have heard, or whatever and whenever it may be, when He will reason with us, and oppose us, and set before us those bitter accusers, our sins, comparing our wrongdoings with our benefits, and striking thought with thought, and scrutinising action with action, and calling us to account for the image which has been blurred and spoilt by wickedness, till at last He leads us away self-convicted and self-condemned, no longer able to say that we are being unjustly treated--a thought which is able even here sometimes to console in their condemnation those who are suffering.

4. But then what advocate shall we have? What pretext? What false excuse? What plausible artifice? What device contrary to the truth will impose upon the court, and rob it of its right judgment, which places in the balance for us all, our entire life, action, word, and thought, and weighs against the evil that which is better, until that which preponderates wins the day, and the decision is given in favour of the main tendency; after which there is no appeal, no higher court, no defence on the ground of subsequent conduct, no oil obtained from the wise virgins, or from them that sell, for the lamps going out, no repentance of the rich man wasting away in the flame, and begging for repentance for his friends, no statute of limitations; but only that final and fearful judgment-seat, more just even than fearful; or rather more fearful because it is also just; when the thrones are set and the Ancient of days takes His seat, and the
   books are opened, and the fiery stream comes forth, and the light before Him, and the darkness prepared; and they that have done good shall go into the resurrection of life, now hid in Christ and to be manifested hereafter with Him, and they that have done evil, into the resurrection of judgment, to which they who have not believed have been condemned already by the word which judges them. Some will be welcomed by the unspeakable light and the vision of the holy and royal Trinity, Which now shines upon them with greater brilliancy and purity and unites Itself wholly to the whole soul, in which solely and beyond all else I take it that the kingdom of heaven consists. The others among other torments, but above and before them all must endure the being outcast from God, and the shame of conscience which has no limit. But of these anon.

5. What are we to do now, my brethren, when crushed, cast down, and drunken but not with strong drink nor with wine, which excites and obfuscates but for a while, but with the blow which the Lord has inflicted upon us, Who says, And thou, O heart, be stirred and shaken, and gives to the despisers the spirit of sorrow and deep sleep to drink: to whom He also says, See, ye despisers, behold, and wonder and perish? [3108] How shall we bear His convictions; or what reply shall we make, when He reproaches us not only with the multitude of the benefits for which we have continued ungrateful, but also with His chastisements, and reckons up the remedies with which we have refused to be healed? Calling us His children [3109] indeed, but unworthy children, and His sons, but strange sons [3110] who have stumbled from lameness out of their paths, in the trackless and rough ground. How and by what means could I have instructed you, and I have not done so? By gentler measures? I have applied them. etc..

--But God made him by nature sinless, and endowed him with free will. By sinless, I mean not that sin could find no place in him (for that is the case with Deity alone), bat that sin is the result of the free volition he enjoys rather than an integral part of his nature; that is to say, he has the power to continue and go forward in the path of goodness, by co-operating with the divine grace, and likewise to turn from good and take to wickedness, for God has conceded this by conferring freedom of will upon him. For there is no virtue in what is the result of mere force.

Code: Select all

--Moreover, it is to be observed that the choice of what is to be done is in our own hands: but the final issue depends, in the one case when our actions are good, on the cooperation of God, Who in His justice brings help according to His foreknowledge to such as choose the good with a right conscience, and, in the other case when our actions are to evil, on the desertion by God, Who again in His justice stands aloof in accordance with His foreknowledge .
Now there are two forms of desertion: for there is desertion in the matters of guidance and training, and there is complete and hopeless desertion. The former has in view the restoration and safety and glory of the sufferer, or the rousing of feelings of emulation and imitation in others, or the glory of God: but the latter is when man, after God has done all that was possible to save him, remains of his own set purpose blind and uncured, or rather incurable, and then he is handed over to utter destruction, as was Judas. May God be gracious to us, and deliver us from such desertion.
Observe further that the ways of God's providence are many, and they cannot be explained in words nor conceived by the mind.
And remember that all the assaults of dark and evil fortune contribute to the salvation of those who receive them with thankfulness, and are assuredly ambassadors of help.
Also one must bear in mind that God's original wish was that all should be saved and come to His Kingdom. For it was not for punishment that He formed us but to share in His goodness, inasmuch as He is a good God. But inasmuch as He is a just God, His will is that sinners should suffer punishment.
The first then is called God's antecedent will and pleasure, and springs from Himself, while the second is called God's consequent will and permission, and has its origin in us. And the latter is two-fold; one part dealing with matters of guidance and training, and having in view our salvation, and the other being hopeless and leading to our utter punishment, as we said above. And this is the case with actions that are not left in our hands .
But of actions that are in our hands the good ones depend on His antecedent goodwill and pleasure, while the wicked ones depend neither on His antecedent nor on His consequent will, but are a concession to free-will For that which is the result of compulsion has neither reason nor virtue in it. God makes provision for all creation and makes all creation the instrument of His help and training, yea often even the demons themselves, as for example in the cases of Job and the swine.

--We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience. For already God in His prescience has prejudged all things in accordance with His goodness and justice.
Bear in mind, too, that virtue is a gift from God implanted in our nature, and that He Himself is the source and cause of all good, and without His co-operation and help we cannot will or do any good thing, But we have it in our power either to abide in virtue and follow God, Who calls us into ways of virtue, or to stray from paths of virtue, which is to dwell in wickedness, and to follow the devil who summons but cannot compel us. For wickedness is nothing else than the withdrawal of goodness, just as darkness is nothing else than the withdrawal of light While then we abide in the natural state we abide in virtue, but when we deviate from the natural state, that is from virtue, we come into an unnatural state and dwell in wickedness.
Repentance is the returning from the unnatural into the natural state, from the devil to God, through discipline and effort.

--When therefore He had furnished his nature with free-will, He imposed a law on him, not to taste of the tree of knowledge. Concerning this tree, we have said as much as is necessary in the chapter about Paradise, at least as much as it was in our power to say. And with this command He gave the promise that, if he should preserve the dignity of the soul by giving the victory to reason, and acknowledging his Creator and observing His command, he should share eternal blessedness and live to all eternity, proving mightier than death: but if forsooth he should subject the soul to the body, and prefer the delights of the body, comparing himself in ignorance of his true dignity to the senseless beasts, and shaking off Iris Creator's yoke, and neglecting His divine injunction, he will be liable to death and corruption, and will be compelled to labour throughout a miserable life. For it was no profit to man to obtain incorruption while still untried and unproved, lest he should fall into pride and under the judgment of the devil. For through his incorruption the devil, when he had fallen as the result of his own free choice, was firmly established in wickedness, so that there was no room for repentance and no hope of change: just as, moreover, the angels also, when they had made free choice of virtue became through grace immoveably rooted in goodness.
It was necessary, therefore, that man should first be put to the test (for man untried and unproved would be worth nothing), and being made perfect by the trial through the observance of the command should thus receive incorruption as the prize of his virtue. For being intermediate between God and matter he was destined, if he kept the command, to be delivered from his natural relation to existing things and to be made one with God's estate, and to be immoveably established in goodness, but, if he transgressed and inclined the rather to what was material, and tore his mind from the Author of his being, I mean God, his fate was to be corruption, and he was to become subject to passion instead of passionless, and mortal instead of immortal, and dependent on connection and unsettled generation. And in his desire for life he would cling to pleasures as though they were necessary to maintain it, and would fearlessly abhor those who sought to deprive him of these, and transfer his desire from God to matter, and his anger from the real enemy of his salvation to his own brethren. The envy of the devil then was the reason of man's fall. For that same demon, so full of envy and with such a hatred of good, would not suffer us to enjoy the pleasures of heaven, when he himself was kept below on account of his arrogance, and hence the false one tempts miserable man with the hope of Godhead, and leading him up to as great a height of arrogance as himself, he hurls him down into a pit of destruction just as deep.

[joasia]

Tom,

The day will come when your son will be upset enough to decide to run away(around 4-6 years old). A majority of children go through this. Whatever insignificant reason a little child will have compared to what is true in the world, he will see it his way and only his way. That will affect the loving father's heart; it's painful when a parent sees that their child is pulling away from him/her when he used to cling to him/her. But, in order to help that child realize that his view is not the way things are, the father will let the child follow through on his plan. He may follow him down the street to keep an eye on him, without the child knowing(because the child is too preoccupied with his thoughts at the moment to notice anyways).

And then, the child will realize what he is doing. Where will he go? What about supper which will soon be ready? Or about bedtime, which he always resisted but now that soft bed sure seems comforting while standing out on the street amongst strangers...etc, etc.

So he turns back, goes home and with such a sad face looks at his parents and that's all the loving parents need to see to melt their hearts. They hug him and tell him that they love him very much and they bring him his dinner, play with him and tuck him into bed. That child realizes that this is his home and he feels the love of his parents. And he never runs away again.

It was the child's choice to come back...it has to be...otherwise, the importance of staying at home would not be learnt. He comes to realize it himself. That child was choosing his path, he was punishing himself, for a short period of time...but he was also punishing the parents, because it meant something deeper to them, in their hearts, to see their child react this way to them. Then there is the teenage years...that is more of major punishment for the parents; the heartache is excruciating.

And there are teenagers that runaway from loving parents because of bad influences and they never come back. Their parents will do anything to bring them back, but they constantly resist. So who really is doing the punishing and to whom? Who is really condemning themselves? Wouldn't loving parents be so full of joy when their child comes back to them?

God isn't condemning us, we are condemning ourselves. If our souls totally refuse to accept Him, then we cannot approach Him. He gave us freewill, if He hadn't, we wouldn't be wondering about these things.

I think that the concept of eternal damnation brought down by the hand of God is a Protestant and Catholic(papist) interpretation. The Orthodox teachings always emphasize that a person has to come to his own realization of his acts in order to repent(turn around) and he is received by God because the person wants to be received. Repentence is a sharp sting to a person's pride. And I think that, that is what makes it so painful, but when that person doesn't care about the sting anymore, then the acceptance is so joyful.

Joanna